locoDog
Automix (AM from here after) It can be very automatic but not very good at mixing or good at (cut) mixing but not automatically.
I don't really use it (I'm trying), but why not, let's learn/vent/inspire together.
I can see it's uses, who wouldn't want to slope off at the cocktail hour to make a good impression with the bridesmaids
(sexism aside, female djs can chat up the bridesmaids too if they like)
For a start AM POI can take a long walk off a short cliff, I have no life as such but I'm not willing to do that much prep.
As for the automatically placed AM POI, I have more faith in having ∞ chimps @ ∞ turntables doing a better job of making a proper sync'd mix.
That leaves the AM editor (AME), visual and fairly tactile. If abit lot mouse heavy
From what I've found the down beat has to be absolutely spot on, even with it right syncopation can still ruin a mix. (maybe I stuck with on genre I'd have more luck)
Ok that's all I know, question time.
How the hell do I get it (AM) to actually beat mix? Not the crappy increase/decrease tempo as it's playing.
(I'm short of questions till I play more)
Suggestion(s)
I came out of the AME to set the next tracks downbeat with the bpm editor, (So for one, you should be able to do that from the AME) I went back in to AME and the track playing is no longer in the AME meaning no setting the next track (So two, tracks should only be forgotten by the AME after they're completely done with.
Even allowing for the awful bpm match if you do one track then it's impossible to line up the next, (it line up to what the next track is @0% pitch not what it is visually lined up as. Even with good prep things go wrong shouldn't there be a nudge capability to save having a perfectly sync'd galloping train wreck?
The next thing the Xfading, even with on beat sync'd mixes it sounds garbage, I'd rather have a scratch type curve. 2 tracks becoming 1 not a obvious fade out and in. or a 1/4 fade then cut.
I can't be bother drawing a pic but was it a challenge set to waste as much screen space inside the AME window (or other editors for that matter)?
So in conclusion, share your methods and ideas here but also have a bloody good moan (as long as you can come up with ideas/fixes) (Pray for 8.1) because what was promised isn't what we've got, and it's argued that V7 was on balance more automaticy and more mixy.
Discuss.
I don't really use it (I'm trying), but why not, let's learn/vent/inspire together.
I can see it's uses, who wouldn't want to slope off at the cocktail hour to make a good impression with the bridesmaids
(sexism aside, female djs can chat up the bridesmaids too if they like)
For a start AM POI can take a long walk off a short cliff, I have no life as such but I'm not willing to do that much prep.
As for the automatically placed AM POI, I have more faith in having ∞ chimps @ ∞ turntables doing a better job of making a proper sync'd mix.
That leaves the AM editor (AME), visual and fairly tactile. If a
From what I've found the down beat has to be absolutely spot on, even with it right syncopation can still ruin a mix. (maybe I stuck with on genre I'd have more luck)
Ok that's all I know, question time.
How the hell do I get it (AM) to actually beat mix? Not the crappy increase/decrease tempo as it's playing.
(I'm short of questions till I play more)
Suggestion(s)
I came out of the AME to set the next tracks downbeat with the bpm editor, (So for one, you should be able to do that from the AME) I went back in to AME and the track playing is no longer in the AME meaning no setting the next track (So two, tracks should only be forgotten by the AME after they're completely done with.
Even allowing for the awful bpm match if you do one track then it's impossible to line up the next, (it line up to what the next track is @0% pitch not what it is visually lined up as. Even with good prep things go wrong shouldn't there be a nudge capability to save having a perfectly sync'd galloping train wreck?
The next thing the Xfading, even with on beat sync'd mixes it sounds garbage, I'd rather have a scratch type curve. 2 tracks becoming 1 not a obvious fade out and in. or a 1/4 fade then cut.
I can't be bother drawing a pic but was it a challenge set to waste as much screen space inside the AME window (or other editors for that matter)?
So in conclusion, share your methods and ideas here but also have a bloody good moan (as long as you can come up with ideas/fixes) (Pray for 8.1) because what was promised isn't what we've got, and it's argued that V7 was on balance more automaticy and more mixy.
Discuss.
Mensajes Thu 13 Nov 14 @ 11:39 pm
xgl_dj
Didn't you hear, once the perfect Automix is developed, it will be the beginning of Skynet.
Mensajes Fri 14 Nov 14 @ 12:43 am
locoDog
Maybe we should ask David Guetta I've seen vids of him AMing without even touching a mixer.
Mensajes Fri 14 Nov 14 @ 12:55 am
raypitman
I've got another use for AM, I'm on my way to build my stand for a local Wedding Messe where AM is gonna be doing it's thing in the background for the next 2 days while I talk to the punters. But I'll put my thinking hat on and come up with some suggestions ... oh yes ;)
Mensajes Fri 14 Nov 14 @ 2:09 am
bagpuss
Can we just get rid of automix? And replace it with auto-play with some basic fade in/out options. The fact the program has "Automix" in the first place is another reason why the software struggles to be taken seriously.
Mensajes Fri 14 Nov 14 @ 3:03 am
xgl_dj
Maybe other company's will adapt "automix" then it won't be perceived as a negative.
The same thing happened with sync.
The same thing happened with sync.
Mensajes Fri 14 Nov 14 @ 3:13 am
locoDog
@bagpuss
Pandora's box has been opened now, embrace it or ignore it, it's here to stay and we have all types of Dj here.
And yes in some quarters it's sneered at, more so since it doesn't work very well, but given some attention it could be a very powerful tool.
Is ableton really all that different (other than it works well & is multitracked) ?
(see http://deadmau5.tumblr.com/post/25690507284/we-all-hit-play )
@xgl_dj sync? Nah mate the beginning of the end was bpm counters :-)
Right that's a few jokes, a whinge, one man with his thinking cap on and a bit of contemplation. let's keep this thread critical but constructive or it'll get moderated out of existence. Hints tips & ideas.
Pandora's box has been opened now, embrace it or ignore it, it's here to stay and we have all types of Dj here.
And yes in some quarters it's sneered at, more so since it doesn't work very well, but given some attention it could be a very powerful tool.
Is ableton really all that different (other than it works well & is multitracked) ?
(see http://deadmau5.tumblr.com/post/25690507284/we-all-hit-play )
@xgl_dj sync? Nah mate the beginning of the end was bpm counters :-)
Right that's a few jokes, a whinge, one man with his thinking cap on and a bit of contemplation. let's keep this thread critical but constructive or it'll get moderated out of existence. Hints tips & ideas.
Mensajes Fri 14 Nov 14 @ 3:31 am
groovindj
Other companies already do have automix.
Some software has existed probably as long as VDJ (maybe longer) and is even used by well established DJs that know how to mix.
As for Ableton Live, I know from direct experience that creating a smoothly mixed end product can take hours. The good thing though is that every last tweak is saved and is adjustable/reversable. It's a DAW after all, and you're effectively producing a track.
What it comes down to is that software is not smart enough to do the job on its own.
Some software has existed probably as long as VDJ (maybe longer) and is even used by well established DJs that know how to mix.
As for Ableton Live, I know from direct experience that creating a smoothly mixed end product can take hours. The good thing though is that every last tweak is saved and is adjustable/reversable. It's a DAW after all, and you're effectively producing a track.
What it comes down to is that software is not smart enough to do the job on its own.
Mensajes Fri 14 Nov 14 @ 6:50 am
kradcliffe
What I want from Automix is quite simple.
1. If one track comes to a dead stop, the next one starts straight away.
2. If a track has a fade end, I can specify the DB level it fades to then the next one starts.
To me it's been made too complicated, and I can't imagine why people would want Automix to beat match as that's what the DJ is for.....
1. If one track comes to a dead stop, the next one starts straight away.
2. If a track has a fade end, I can specify the DB level it fades to then the next one starts.
To me it's been made too complicated, and I can't imagine why people would want Automix to beat match as that's what the DJ is for.....
Mensajes Fri 14 Nov 14 @ 6:57 am
raypitman
OMG.
This is getting too complicated for me again, I'm just a simple man and don't understand some of the above posts
First off, there are a few good threads with lots of ideas already posted(.ie mine in wishes and new features, but I'm not capable of putting a link here, sorry)
Next, yes AM is f***in complicated, just like the rest of vdj8, and NO I do not expect a computer to do everything for me.
AM works perfectly according to its parameters, but it's not easy to understand as the POIs have different names than the AM options and you can read page 61 as many times as you like and it won't bring you any further.
I think it's all about making it easier/intuitive to set the AM POIs and then to have the options of how I want my AM to work at any given time. For instance, if I'm playing manually(a contradiction in itself when I'm using an electronic computer program anyhow) I can see/move/delete the "hot cues" on the fly .... so why can't I do this with the AM POIs when I'm in AM.
Easy Peasy.
This is getting too complicated for me again, I'm just a simple man and don't understand some of the above posts
First off, there are a few good threads with lots of ideas already posted(.ie mine in wishes and new features, but I'm not capable of putting a link here, sorry)
Next, yes AM is f***in complicated, just like the rest of vdj8, and NO I do not expect a computer to do everything for me.
AM works perfectly according to its parameters, but it's not easy to understand as the POIs have different names than the AM options and you can read page 61 as many times as you like and it won't bring you any further.
I think it's all about making it easier/intuitive to set the AM POIs and then to have the options of how I want my AM to work at any given time. For instance, if I'm playing manually(a contradiction in itself when I'm using an electronic computer program anyhow) I can see/move/delete the "hot cues" on the fly .... so why can't I do this with the AM POIs when I'm in AM.
Easy Peasy.
Mensajes Fri 14 Nov 14 @ 4:54 pm
raypitman
here's another good one in the Bug reports forum "When Will SMART Mode In Automix Be Fixed?"
I've been using AM for many years, and all that I want is that it blends/fades one track to another, I've never used Smart mode b'cos it has never worked properly in my opinion. So why should it start working now.
I
I've been using AM for many years, and all that I want is that it blends/fades one track to another, I've never used Smart mode b'cos it has never worked properly in my opinion. So why should it start working now.
I
Mensajes Fri 14 Nov 14 @ 5:08 pm
raypitman
and I saw a tutorial vid from EchoPapa that said if you want the AM to beatmatch it's important to line up the CBG thingies in the AM editor.
Mensajes Fri 14 Nov 14 @ 5:19 pm
locoDog
Apologies for thread-napping Mr Pitman (I didn't notice your thread in Wishes had taken off) General Discussion might get more viewers and input, and the good stuff from here can be sifted out and moved across.
Through experiments (just for fun) with script & POI, I've had perfect (if a bit boring, 128bpm all the way *yawn*) hands off (EDM style) mixing (across 4 decks) and yep CBG's have to be perfect and the work load just wouldn't make sense ( for real world) making a track list on the spot. But it is possible, just that switching between editors (work flow) make it impractical.
The problem is AM is too different to usual playing, so what's needed for AM isn't needed for usual play and a vice versa.
Just look at the default skin and ask of it what do I need from here to AM? (excluding browser space) Not so much I guessing.
I think AME should really be it's own skin (or skin panel) with it's own set of scripts, even it's own special controller theme (perhaps)
e.g. in AM you press hotcue 1 then you can encoder the "Full mix in POI" into the right place, press HC1 again (or other HC to set others) then that's set. ~vague idea~
The basis of the AME isn't a million miles away from the interface design I'm imagining, just what I'm imagining isn't a unscriptable window, it covers the deck space of usual mixing and it's much more dynamic.
Scrolling waves for what's happening (like Horiz scratch waves) and switch to stationary waves (like it is in the AME now) for constructing.
Sandbox lets you check what's going to happen.
A human set mix window, (so you want to mix A to B? which shape Xfader curve (choice of 8 or so) would you like?)
Since I've only really started playing, I don't know what good AM performance is, maybe what I'm thinking is beyond the scope.
I've used it as a unmanned house party chillout room (LOCKED OFF!) back to back player with adequate results.
Anyway sorry for turning this post into a 10,000 word thesis.
Through experiments (just for fun) with script & POI, I've had perfect (if a bit boring, 128bpm all the way *yawn*) hands off (EDM style) mixing (across 4 decks) and yep CBG's have to be perfect and the work load just wouldn't make sense ( for real world) making a track list on the spot. But it is possible, just that switching between editors (work flow) make it impractical.
The problem is AM is too different to usual playing, so what's needed for AM isn't needed for usual play and a vice versa.
Just look at the default skin and ask of it what do I need from here to AM? (excluding browser space) Not so much I guessing.
I think AME should really be it's own skin (or skin panel) with it's own set of scripts, even it's own special controller theme (perhaps)
e.g. in AM you press hotcue 1 then you can encoder the "Full mix in POI" into the right place, press HC1 again (or other HC to set others) then that's set. ~vague idea~
The basis of the AME isn't a million miles away from the interface design I'm imagining, just what I'm imagining isn't a unscriptable window, it covers the deck space of usual mixing and it's much more dynamic.
Scrolling waves for what's happening (like Horiz scratch waves) and switch to stationary waves (like it is in the AME now) for constructing.
Sandbox lets you check what's going to happen.
A human set mix window, (so you want to mix A to B? which shape Xfader curve (choice of 8 or so) would you like?)
Since I've only really started playing, I don't know what good AM performance is, maybe what I'm thinking is beyond the scope.
I've used it as a unmanned house party chillout room (LOCKED OFF!) back to back player with adequate results.
Anyway sorry for turning this post into a 10,000 word thesis.
Mensajes Fri 14 Nov 14 @ 7:22 pm
raypitman
@ locodog no problem dude,
I think you've pretty much hit the button there,
In my humble opinion too many people(including myself sometimes) are simply compaining that AM doesn't work and I think it's maybe time to discuss how to improve it instead, after all that's why it's called a forum for general discussion.
Just imagine how much of an uproar there would be if everybody had to set there cue points or loops and stuff manually in the editor ..lol
I think you've pretty much hit the button there,
In my humble opinion too many people(including myself sometimes) are simply compaining that AM doesn't work and I think it's maybe time to discuss how to improve it instead, after all that's why it's called a forum for general discussion.
Just imagine how much of an uproar there would be if everybody had to set there cue points or loops and stuff manually in the editor ..lol
Mensajes Tue 18 Nov 14 @ 6:26 am
bagpuss
I'm all for an improved auto play system with options for those DJ's who need to walk away, but the actual mixing/beat matching I don't think is needed.
Mensajes Tue 18 Nov 14 @ 12:31 pm
raypitman
@ bagpuss
thanks for that input, it's nice to see a new name(even though I know "bagpuss" from my childhood on the TV) joining into the conversation.
But I have to say as one of those DJ's(mainly Weddings and private parties) that sometimes needs to bang a few songs into AM so that I can then get down on the dancefloor and get the people movin, that it would be really nice when the AM would work for me. That means that I need a system that is easy to operate and quick to set.
It's all about being able to control the mix, quickly and intuatively, I'm not looking for a program that will deliver the perfect playlist for a wedding, just a tool that will support me during my performance.
thanks for that input, it's nice to see a new name(even though I know "bagpuss" from my childhood on the TV) joining into the conversation.
But I have to say as one of those DJ's(mainly Weddings and private parties) that sometimes needs to bang a few songs into AM so that I can then get down on the dancefloor and get the people movin, that it would be really nice when the AM would work for me. That means that I need a system that is easy to operate and quick to set.
It's all about being able to control the mix, quickly and intuatively, I'm not looking for a program that will deliver the perfect playlist for a wedding, just a tool that will support me during my performance.
Mensajes Tue 18 Nov 14 @ 3:58 pm
DJ Koz
I'm just glad AM doesn't have to try and beatmatch anymore!
I love that you can set crossfade time and ignore dead air in the beginning and at the end of songs just like in previous versions and tells you how much time is left on the playlist now in version 8.
Now if they can have automix deactivate when loading a song on the deck that was used for automix then that would be great. That is what happens in 7 and personally I think makes a lot of sense. When you're loading a track on that deck then obviously you are done with automix... Dinner is over and time to rock the crowd again!!!!
Also an option to make a cloned sidelist into automix.
I love that you can set crossfade time and ignore dead air in the beginning and at the end of songs just like in previous versions and tells you how much time is left on the playlist now in version 8.
Now if they can have automix deactivate when loading a song on the deck that was used for automix then that would be great. That is what happens in 7 and personally I think makes a lot of sense. When you're loading a track on that deck then obviously you are done with automix... Dinner is over and time to rock the crowd again!!!!
Also an option to make a cloned sidelist into automix.
Mensajes Tue 18 Nov 14 @ 4:20 pm
raypitman
Beta Build 2048.868! this is cool!
a lot of the problems with AM until now have been related to the positioning of the AM poi's, sometimes they were rather conspicuous by their absence.
Check this out, find a song in your collection that doesn't have all the AM poi's in it, open the poi editor, and then hit the reanalyse button by right clicking on the track, Hey Presto, lot's more AM poi's. This is a great step forwards, a big thanks to the team or whoever was responsible for this!
I'm not saying that this will instantly solve all the problems, but it's nice.
a lot of the problems with AM until now have been related to the positioning of the AM poi's, sometimes they were rather conspicuous by their absence.
Check this out, find a song in your collection that doesn't have all the AM poi's in it, open the poi editor, and then hit the reanalyse button by right clicking on the track, Hey Presto, lot's more AM poi's. This is a great step forwards, a big thanks to the team or whoever was responsible for this!
I'm not saying that this will instantly solve all the problems, but it's nice.
Mensajes Wed 19 Nov 14 @ 3:07 am
djfourmoney
I don't see why this is an issue and should teach some you Wedding DJ's that mixing skills IS important even if the software is doing the work. Before I came to VDJ, I was avid user of Mix Meister Express and still have the last developed version, though I haven't used it in a few years.
Timing and song selection still apply to Automix, I don't see how this can be ignored. If you are just playing the cocktail/dinner music than all you need it to do is avoid long dead air and cut to the next song on the list.
If you want to be able to take a break without breaking up the groove on the dance floor or timing it so you can play an extended version of the song, long past the ideal mixing point so you can take a wiz; then you'll need to learn Automix like any other part of the software.
I haven't dived into it at all, but in conversations with the Atomix staff I am under the assumption that many of the things I learned with MME can be transferred to VDJ8's Automix feature.
In other words it will beat mix, and fade into the next track. It is not like using Windows Media Player or iTunes player with cross-fade enabled.
Timing and song selection still apply to Automix, I don't see how this can be ignored. If you are just playing the cocktail/dinner music than all you need it to do is avoid long dead air and cut to the next song on the list.
If you want to be able to take a break without breaking up the groove on the dance floor or timing it so you can play an extended version of the song, long past the ideal mixing point so you can take a wiz; then you'll need to learn Automix like any other part of the software.
I haven't dived into it at all, but in conversations with the Atomix staff I am under the assumption that many of the things I learned with MME can be transferred to VDJ8's Automix feature.
In other words it will beat mix, and fade into the next track. It is not like using Windows Media Player or iTunes player with cross-fade enabled.
Mensajes Wed 19 Nov 14 @ 1:22 pm
locoDog
Actually I've been playing with the AME, I've found quick cut mixes when all the tunes are the same bpm work ok, I'm not saying it was good but it certainly measured up to the mediocrity you'd find at Yates' (a horridly comercial chain of bars in the UK) on a friday night.
Play a sample over the top of the 'mix' and you've got Radio 1 'bodge it & scarper' (cut & run) mixes
Artistically I don't approve of mediocrity but pragmatically... some crowds just want the most recent hits, well programmed, cut mixed build up to build.
Even then, the GUI for AME is really lacking (actually quite painful to work with) Do any AM users use the editor or do you do the cue work and let it play automatically?
A few (other) recommendations I would put forward are you should only ever see 2 tracks in the AME window (just that selected mix) with markers pointing to the mix in point of the previous mix & let the window scroll with the mouse zooming in and out to move the fade window is painful.
That being said, (in a previous suggestion) a scriptable skin/skin panel dedicated to AM/AME would be better.
Play a sample over the top of the 'mix' and you've got Radio 1 'bodge it & scarper' (cut & run) mixes
Artistically I don't approve of mediocrity but pragmatically... some crowds just want the most recent hits, well programmed, cut mixed build up to build.
Even then, the GUI for AME is really lacking (actually quite painful to work with) Do any AM users use the editor or do you do the cue work and let it play automatically?
A few (other) recommendations I would put forward are you should only ever see 2 tracks in the AME window (just that selected mix) with markers pointing to the mix in point of the previous mix & let the window scroll with the mouse zooming in and out to move the fade window is painful.
That being said, (in a previous suggestion) a scriptable skin/skin panel dedicated to AM/AME would be better.
Mensajes Fri 21 Nov 14 @ 9:13 am
