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Tema: 60fps - Page: 1
bigron1PRO InfinityMember since 2010
Don mentioned that a 60fps was more easily achieved by my laptop than the default 30. It seems with this as a new setting to run more smoothly..but could there be any hidden disadvantages and problems?
I'm using Intel hd 4000 gpu and an i5 2.7 to 3.4 ghz cpu.

Mensajes Sat 05 Aug 17 @ 9:49 am
Did not say anything about your machine specifically.

Don Moir wrote :
On a fast machine with aero on in Win7 or Win8 or better, you should see good results with skin and video FPS set to 60. On slower machines good luck. The new skin drawing model should help though for slower machines. The experimental skin drawing still has some problems and does not work at all in Win7 with aero off but you will still see jitter with it on or off unless frame rates match the refresh rate both skin and video. That is how it has been for me testing with different hardware etc. If you have a low end machine you can see jitter etc simply because the machine cannot keep up. I am assuming with the above you have a reasonable machine. A low end GPU can also be a bottle neck.

You can choke a slower machine to death with to high a setting... It will also do you no good at all if you can't hit the refresh rate. Hitting the refresh rate is about smoothing and tearing issues... Any old method can be used to try and hit some FPS but it will miss the refresh rate or some multiple of it and that is the more difficult part... It is easier to do that by the software if you going for 60 and not 30. It should not matter to you since your timing is most likely going to be off anyway. If your machine is too slow you probably cannot hit the refresh rate but all depends. How do you check the timing? Best way is to use TV in options and tell it to show the FPS... Use a blank layout and go from there.

You will notice the effect most when scrolling something horizontally. On the VDJ user interface maybe the wave form... On the video something scrolling horizontally. You will see some jitter or jumping and not constant smoothness. If you set the FPS in VDJ for either skin or video to 30, it will most likely not hit 30 FPS and miss the refresh cycle.

Also for Win7 it is best to have Aero (also called DWM) on. You can make it faster by turning transparency off. All of it comes into play for smoothness and tearing issues... If you are just playing video and otherwise don't care, it won't matter to you so much.

Mensajes Sat 05 Aug 17 @ 11:48 am
I can pretty much test everything in both VDJ and outside of VDJ. Testing with TellyContainer, on my older i7 and new NVIDIA 1060 I can run TellyMedia with camera, media, carousel on and TellyVisuals with a complex layout... This easily maintains 60 FPS... I can also run the test at 30 FPS with exact refresh hit and perfect smoothness but not easy like it might sound. Then I can run 3 or 4 more copies of TellyMedia and TellyVisuals all doing the same thing as separate running programs. and still maintain a perfect 60 FPS. Could not do that on same machine with old GPU card with just one copy of TM and TV loaded to up to the max.

If I do not try and hit the refresh rate, then it pegs out at 1000FPS mostly because of 1 milli-second pause between display cycles.. But it is not displaying full frames at 1000FPS... It can only display partial frames and can produce massive tearing... It can't display full frames faster than the refresh rate.

I can get good results running in VDJ as well at 60FPS... Biggest bottle neck is going to be the skin drawing but on a fast effective machine that is mitigated. Other bottle necks include plugins that do not perform well. Easily checked by using TV FPS display. You can use the VDJ cpu check but you have to keep polling it and it is not correct when using hardware fullscreen mode.

Mensajes Sat 05 Aug 17 @ 12:10 pm
To put this into a complete context rather than just sound bytes here is the full text where I was talking about the why for 60FPS.

Don Moir wrote :

The only way for me to get no jitter in skin or video is to set both to the refresh rate. It can vary but 60hz for many. It can be difficult to get an exact FPS other than the refresh rate. For example: If you set the VDJ skin or video FPS to 30, you will probably not get 30 frames per second... For me normally 31 to 33. So given that is not an exact multiple of 60, you will get jitter. If you set the skin FPS to 30 and the video FPS to 60, you will probably get jitter in the video as well as the skin but most of you will not notice it on the video. You need to scroll something on the video screen to see it but many of you just play video and not so noticeably. In other words if you are not getting exact timing more than likely you will see jitter with things that scroll. If you are seeing a frame rate that is not an exact multiple of the refresh rate than you are not getting exact timing.

You can't display more full frames per second than the refresh rate. Mostly you want to match the refresh rate in order to prevent tearing. Tearing occurs when 2 different frames are output and try to display at the same time with no notion of refresh rate. You can't set this mode in VDJ but you can set it DirectX. This can show a very high frame rate but you are still not getting more than the refresh rate per second... What happens with that is you get partial frames being output and so you get tearing.

So you can never display more full frames than your refresh rate. You can give the appearance of getting more frames per second but they are not full frames and tearing becomes more of an issue.

So what about 30 FPS... seems that should be easy and just half of the normal refresh rate. There is a mode for this in DirectX but only works in hardware full screen mode and VDJ probably does not make any use of it. In window mode you cannot just use a simple timer like wait 33.33 milliseconds and display the next frame... You would need to also take into account how much time it took to draw the frame but that is not important for this... You have to track the vertical blank period manually If you are only waiting some time to display the next frame then chances are you will miss the vertical blank which is when you should draw. If you miss the vertical blank period than you have to wait for the next one and of course your timing is messed up and you see jitter. Tracking the vertical blank period is not that difficult but not straight forward either in window mode for getting a perfect 30 FPS or any exact multiple of the refresh rate. I have that working here in my own test apps though.

The other side of this is skin drawing in general. Mostly a complete waste of resources since VDJ8 arrived. Drawing the entire skin and probably doing all the compositing of text and images etc.. X times per seconds. On low end machines you can see much increased CPU and bottle necks between the skin drawing and video drawing. Good luck with any kind of consistent timing. They are finally starting to fix the skin drawing and only draw the parts that need drawing instead of drawing the whole thing every time. This will help a lot but it appears they are keeping the skin FPS in. They should take it another step further and make it more intelligent and get rid of the skin FPS I do believe.

On a fast machine with aero on in Win7 or Win8 or better, you should see good results with skin and video FPS set to 60. On slower machines good luck. The new skin drawing model should help though for slower machines. The experimental skin drawing still has some problems and does not work at all in Win7 with aero off but you will still see jitter with it on or off unless frame rates match the refresh rate both skin and video. That is how it has been for me testing with different hardware etc. If you have a low end machine you can see jitter etc simply because the machine cannot keep up. I am assuming with the above you have a reasonable machine. A low end GPU can also be a bottle neck.

Mensajes Sat 05 Aug 17 @ 5:43 pm
Probably about half the people don't know what I am talking about. That is fine and it can get complex to talk about because there are several issues. Before windows it was easy but windows imposed new problems. Early on nobody cared because it was so limited anyway. I would say just in the last few years it has become possible to get a very good display with no tearing or jitter... If you don't know what that means look it up. In these forums I have shown an easy way to test for tearing, have explained what it is and have made some suggestions to help with that. It can be hard to pin it all down with different hardware... You need a decent machine... whats that... I can't tell you that exactly. I can tell you that I have an i7 but an older one... When I had a low end GPU in it, nothing really helped.. I tried many things to get the most out of it... Having Aero on was too much for it. I was fine with that since I am not in front of an audience. I normally use lower end equipment though since it keeps me in touch better. But I wanted to see what the next step might look like so got a far better GPU for 250 dollars. NVIDIA 1060. This is for a tower computer not a laptop... The tower CPU and GPU versions are usually much better... Laptops have to deal with heat and space requirements more.

Everything is more expensive with a laptop. I had said that I have never purchased a laptop which is true and why would i buy something more expensive and inferior if I don't have to be mobile. Ron seems to think this meant I have never had a laptop. Ron I don't normally buy any machine but I used to buy towers all the time with all the pieces that I wanted and assemble them. I have had to do that in last couple years as well Laptops and towers computers are usually paid for by someone else and given to me. When I said that I never purchased a laptop it was in the context of not realizing the tie of the processor to the GPU for the intel GPUs... SInce I had never had to buy one it did not occur to me but does not matter anyway. Just to set the record straight. Computers come and go here. Sometimes have them for a long time and sometimes not. When VDJ8 came out I had a pretty nice laptop with intel HD 4000 and NVIDIA and I tested it extensively.

I am rambling on and that happens when I am tired. I sort of have a spike of energy before I crash...

Anyway all the above is about me getting to a point which I think I said correctly if maybe a little confusing. The point is about aero or DWM.

On Win7 you can turn it on or off... If your machine CPU or GPU is slow you probably want it to be off. With Win8 or above DWM is always on I believe. You may be able to disable it somehow though but typically it will be on. You can get some improvement with aero on by turning the transparency effect off.. This is the real dog with it anyway. Any program that has transparency in it's user interface can also dog your system.

This is not about beating up on Ron... It is about taking a next step. Most of us are not quite ready for that and it may be quite some time yet. We need to learn some things together.

Ron had made this statement:

"These things can be turned off. Examples are the rather stupid eye candy which revolves around Windows Aero"

Just pointing out Ron it is not just stupid eye candy... You need DWM on to get the best results but you also need a machine that can handle it. For Wind7 turn Aero on and transparency off and if it is causing a slow down then turn aero off.

I am flat out of gas and need to go to bed... Will explain more later about why DWM is important... Mostly it is on for Win8 and above so no worries.

Mensajes Sat 05 Aug 17 @ 6:11 pm
DWM on can help a lot with tearing... Desktop Window Manager. In Win7 it used to display transparent caption bars etc.. Best to turn that off and when selecting an aero theme in Win7. After selecting the aero theme click window color at bottom of personalization dialog box. The dialog will contain a setting to turn transparency on or off. DWM essentially turns on hardware screen display for windows UI etc. and all application frames etc. It can make some apps come to a crawl though. This is pretty rare. It is because they are using some GDI functions that don't really match well with the hardware acceleration. Any extensive use of GetPixel or SetPixel and some others I am forgetting can make the app very slow... Does not effect anything but that app and if the apps have not fixed it by now the hell with them.

There is a problem with some laptop computers when using 60FPS and a combination of Intel and NVIDIA GPUs... Looks like NVIDIA and Microsoft are pointing fingers at each other on it... Seems they can't easily fix it for some computers. Can produced some diagonal weirdness which they are calling tearing but it is not normal tearing so I call it weirdness. 2 things that can most likely fix the problem... Reduce frame rate to about 50 to 55 but there goes your sync out the window. Use hardware fullscreen mode... This is fine but then the VDJ display becomes strange... I have not tried to reproduce severe problems with it lately but it can be easy to lock up... If you are careful and learn the various problems with it, it should be fine. Hardware fullscreen has other benefits... It should be the quickest display you can get. It can eliminate tearing with DWM on or off assuming you are getting 60FPS. The 60FPS figure can wobble a bit and is normal but it should not vary too much... There are some other things that can show you if you are getting tearing or jitter for the video display... You can watch the wave display for the VDJ user interface.

On my machine here, I get perfect smoothness with a lot going on in window mode or hardware fullscreen mode. For window mode it can get weird when DWM is not on... It can be a lot slower when DWM is off and seems impacted by the VDJ skin drawing more. Outside of VDJ it was fine.,.. at least it was fine for days... then suddenly tearing started to occur with DWM off. That strange. it was working fine for days now what... reboot and nothing i tried fixed it... a few days later when i tried tearing is gone again lol... I have not resolved that issue. Bottom line is DWM on is consistent and much faster for VDJ on my machine. Windows mode has been a problem with tearing for a long time so no real surprise... DWM on can do a good job with it though.

Some people say they don't see any problem and they just set the FPS to 30. That is fine... The problems are not apparent to you and that is also fine. I am not suggesting you should do anything different than what you are doing now... It can be a complex subject and just detailing some info for anyone who might care. When it is all working well, you will see ultra smooth scrolling like it's gliding on glass. This opposed to what can be a choppy tearing behavior that can make you look bad. But for just plain old video there is normally too much noise and movement to notice these particulars.

Sorry about all these wordy post but it is not easy to answer. There is variety out there... some don't care, some don't see a problem and some do. If you don't see a problem it does not mean it is not there...

Mensajes Sat 05 Aug 17 @ 10:58 pm
just for fun last night I switch video and skin FPS to 60fps each.
then I had to slow down the marquee crawl in TV. it was rolling past smooth as glass all right...but a smidgen too fast considering the average drunk's reading speed.
skin looked sharper, video was sharper and cpu meter hardly budged.

no complaints here.

Mensajes Sun 06 Aug 17 @ 3:18 pm
Yup I've always ran them both at 60 and no problems here either.

Mensajes Sun 06 Aug 17 @ 4:06 pm
When I was doing the test with no checking for vertical sync and getting 1000FPS while otherwise useless it tells you a lot. I had TM and TV loaded up heavy with hi-res video, slide shows, camera, and complex layout. The display loop cannot display more than 1000FPS even if I was doing nothing. That is because I let it sleep for 1 MS between display cycles. That says with everything going on all the decoding, and all the management of everything (and there is a great deal that is going on) is not effecting the display loop to any degree. I think that is pretty incredible. Some may only get like 300 to 500 FPS when doing that test but that is still great. You have about 16 MS to do what you need to do to compose the display... That means 16 MS to do everything. Any plugin only has some fraction of that time to do what it needs to do. This is easy to achieve but some plugins go way over that time slot. They need to be fixed. If you have something stalling like that, it can ruin your 60 FPS frame rate. It is also why I complain about the needless skin drawing so much. I have always assumed people what to be professional or do the best job they can especially when doing it in front of a crowd. I don't complain just to complain lol... why the hell would I do that? 60 FPS means everything done before the display has only 1000 / 60 (16.6667) milliseconds to do it. But this is a very long time in terms of a fast computer. As humans we pretty much can't do any physical thing in 16.6667 ms. An eye blink can take anywhere from about 100-400 ms.

Mensajes Sun 06 Aug 17 @ 7:42 pm
For an easy visual test to test for jitter or tearing you can use this layout in TellyVisuals. It is a simple image that displays from the top of screen to bottom of screen and continues to scroll from right to left.

It should scroll perfectly smooth with no tearing or jitter... Tearing will be seen as a ragged horizontal separation in the image. Jitter will be noticed when the image is jumping a bit... In other words the motion will not be smooth. This absolutely depends on 60 FPS... anything else will void the test. If you see jitter, it means your machine is not keeping up most likely. If you see tearing it could be your machine cannot keep up or could be your display mode... Feel free to report back in either case so we can have some kind of record of capability for various hardware. It is important that you report back correct results... When I say smooth I mean perfect smooth and not something that might mean "looks ok to me" :).

Mensajes Mon 07 Aug 17 @ 1:04 am
More on 30 FPS testing.

I already mentioned this does not work well in VDJ when you are taking into account absolute smoothness. That is because when you set the FPS to 30 in VDJ it cannot match that rate. Normally I get something like 32-33 FPS... That means it is missing the vertical blank time on occasion and can cause a jerky behavior. This problem is not restricted to just VDJ. It can just be difficult to do. It took me some time working on it periodically when I had some spare moments over a several month period. I went thru several vertical blank detection methods... Nothing works under some scenarios but I have that pegged now. I tested in windows mode with DWM on and off, and with hardware fullscreen mode. In all cases I now have 30 FPS working in TC and it is locked on perfectly. There is no tearing or jitter. The results are very good and just a tad worse than 60 FPS.... A difference that does not really matter and I am picky. Why do this if 60 FPS is easier? It gives your machine more time to relax and do other things. Not too big a deal but I felt I needed a fallback position in some cases.

Mensajes Mon 07 Aug 17 @ 1:50 am

Mensajes Mon 07 Aug 17 @ 4:24 am

Mensajes Mon 07 Aug 17 @ 5:19 am
bigron1PRO InfinityMember since 2010
Don I like your "rambling on". A lot may be beyond my comprehension, and I also need time to digest your comments. I have been very busy, but even now when I have some it's still complex.

Thank you, I'm sure there is much to learn in your comments.

Mensajes Mon 07 Aug 17 @ 4:46 pm
Thank you for the time and effort that you have put into this explanation. Yes, I did not need all of this information and it is quite complex. However, you took the time to write it, so I took the time to read it. You made it easy to read and comprehend with the use of punctuation, something that I personally appreciate. Keep up the good work.

Mensajes Mon 07 Aug 17 @ 5:27 pm
Thanks. It is good information to gauge your computer and necessary to move up to another level eventually.

Once again for Win7 it is important to be using an aero theme. Also important to turn the transparency effect off when using an aero theme. With these settings I just ran VDJ, and 5 TellyContainers at the same time all loaded up to the max and all full screen on different monitors. Absolutely no problem maintaining perfect sync on all the programs with no tearing or jitter. When I am not using an aero theme this is not possible.VDJ will stumble because of the skin drawing mostly but also the 5 TellyContainers will not be able to maintain perfect sync. WIth Win8 and above DWM (aero) is always on for the most part and so you don't have to worry about that aspect. I also no I could not achieve this with weak equipment. I have to watch the money these days but even when someone pays for the computer for me I watch the money. You don't have to pay a lot for a great machine but most of you are laptop people for portability reasons and can end paying a lot more for it. I also have dozens of programs running when I am working. Several development environments and other tools I use when working. God only knows how many web pages I usually have open but many... Most of these are research pages which is never ending. All these things going on with no problems and no real impact on performance... If when testing I ever think that something is causing unusual behavior then I shut every down and go from there but it is rare that I need to do that. Not suggesting this is how you should work though and I would not have all this going on either if I was performing but it is normal for me to do this when I am working.

I suspect this thread will go into limbo soon. I also figured I would get no real response for the scroll test. A few may respond but I have tried this before with a number of things and response is normally lacking. That does not bother me and is expected but there are some things you should know. It is almost impossible to come up with this information on your own unless you are constantly dealing with it at low levels. I won't say this info is perfect for everyone and that would be foolish of me. It is absolutely a good basis though for most of you and at least something to shoot for with your machines.

Mensajes Tue 08 Aug 17 @ 6:22 am
Is it possible to include Win 10 in your test? I'm sure there are Win 7 users still around, but it is a bit older. The Model T was a great car, but we have come a long way since then.

Mensajes Wed 09 Aug 17 @ 6:59 pm
The test should be valid for win 7 and up. I focus on win 7 a little more because you have the option to turn DWM (aero) on and off. Many users have it turned off which turns off hardware display management. You should turn aero on but you should turn the transparency effect off since that can reduce performance. Win 8 and above always has DWM on and does not do transparency so you are good from the get go and does not need much explanation.

I have given you the tools and the information so you can test it yourselves. I had a Win10 machine here for awhile but like I said they come and go. The test are very easy with the ScrollTest.lay. It pretty much can tell you right away if you are getting jitter or tearing. If it is not absolutely perfect smooth you can tell it. You can also turn the FPS setting on in TV to show you the frame rate. I do wish people would report back on their testing.

The FPS settings in VDJ for skin and video need to be set to monitor refresh rate which is normally 60. Impossible to get valid results otherwise and impossible to hit the exact refresh rate when not set to 60 in VDJ.

I run certain test on every machine that comes in here and this testing is one of them and have done that for years but it will get even more attention now.

You need descent hardware and if people would report back we could have some kind of a record. You can't get blood out of a stone you know :)

The test on only valid for XP when in hardware fullscreen mode.

Mensajes Wed 09 Aug 17 @ 7:14 pm
Hey Don question, I run everything at 60fps and when I check within VDJ my skin is running at 15/17 and the video has dropped down to 30.

What should I be looking for?? Running Windows 8.1

Mensajes Wed 09 Aug 17 @ 7:34 pm
You should first check with nothing else running and run just enough for the test. Also nothing running in VDJ except just enough for test.

Be specific... If it is an i7 then say i7 and same for i5. What GPU are you using?

I will have more info for you when you come back with more info for me.

Mensajes Wed 09 Aug 17 @ 8:08 pm
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