vpcdj
first i wanna say that with God anything is possible. but thats easier said than done.
Saturn was the angel of music before he was kicked out of heaven lol. its not surprising that evil is associated with music. some religions consider music with hard bass and distortion to be demonic. lol
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a club without alchohol is impossible in my opinion. the club is all about the chicks and booze. chicks bring in the guys (entrance $) and the guys buy the girls the drinks which is really where the money's at.
the only way a club could make money off other things than alcohol is games like pool, arcade games etc... and those too, especially pool, are really drinking games.
[in my area] a non-alcoholic club would have to have an entrance of at least $15 and 150 people ($2250) for it to operate. alcohol bars currently charge about $3 entrance. $3 will attract more people than $15 so thats 300 people=$900 entrance + alcohol i'm guessing half those people will spend at least $20 ($3000)
=sub total $3900
vs. $2250.
at night people just want to do evil things and it begins with alcohol lol
then u have the added advantage of waitresses (and even djs) being tipped in alcoholic bars. soberheads dont carry much money with them.
Saturn was the angel of music before he was kicked out of heaven lol. its not surprising that evil is associated with music. some religions consider music with hard bass and distortion to be demonic. lol
---
a club without alchohol is impossible in my opinion. the club is all about the chicks and booze. chicks bring in the guys (entrance $) and the guys buy the girls the drinks which is really where the money's at.
the only way a club could make money off other things than alcohol is games like pool, arcade games etc... and those too, especially pool, are really drinking games.
[in my area] a non-alcoholic club would have to have an entrance of at least $15 and 150 people ($2250) for it to operate. alcohol bars currently charge about $3 entrance. $3 will attract more people than $15 so thats 300 people=$900 entrance + alcohol i'm guessing half those people will spend at least $20 ($3000)
=sub total $3900
vs. $2250.
at night people just want to do evil things and it begins with alcohol lol
then u have the added advantage of waitresses (and even djs) being tipped in alcoholic bars. soberheads dont carry much money with them.
Mensajes Fri 12 Aug 05 @ 5:21 pm
antileon
Well, there are more colors in the world than black and white. I'm sorry but you have to discover the world beyond the boundries of your area. I think in general that if you believe in something as hard as I think bagpuss do, there will be nothing stopping him. In the end, _you_ choose whether you want to visit that place or not. I'd sure do. Next time I visit Dubrovnic, I'll make a stop in Sarajevo aswell. (I'll bring my laptop too) :)
Mensajes Fri 12 Aug 05 @ 5:39 pm
bagpuss
VPCDJ, you have a good point, you must be from somwhere like England or the U.S?, countries where the majority of the nightlife is exactly as you described.., but your forgetting something.., the people who are out at night who share their drinking habbits and intentions towards the opposite sex are just one kind of people...
I have friends in England who are non-religious who don't like drinking, but they like music, and they don't like TV.., perhaps people who want to feel more safe when they go out, or people who are health conscious.., a good example is the millions of people nation-wide who are in the gym everynight, they know how the consumption of alcohol is counterproductive to their training, then you have to consider that their are more people in the world who are religious than people who are not..
You can be fooled in the west to think that your the majority in atheism (alcohol allowed), but when you look at the figures it is clear that the majority of people are infact religious (alcohol forbbiden), this is true in christianity, islam and judeism.., and most of the other major world religions, which accounts for 5/6 of the worlds population...
So it is clear that the main clubbing/nightlife industry is aimed at non-religious people who are infact a minority, this is why clubbing culture is mostly present in countries that have largely neglected their nations predominent religion, partly to balme is capitalism..,so the imirgrants seem like the only religious folks..
Now find a country where religion is still largely practiced and respected, but starting to be influenced by the west, so the clubs that have opened.. sell alcohol, now what about taking the best from the west and combining it with the local (more eastern) culture?, surely that would form a better balance..and prevent the currentely safe streets from turning into what England is today, where alot of glass bottles are thrown at the heads of anyone who's not in their gang!..
The point here, is not to open up a club like pacha and just not sell alcohol, that would be a disaster.., but to open something that doesn't sell alcohol, with a whole new target market, this means things would need to be changed from what has become a tradition in clubs.., infact it may only resemble a club in the way that it's a nightspot for people to gather and socialise whilst listening to some of the best world music.. in a relaxing environment with some amusements.., that inturn promotes a nice and not nasty culture..
Bagpuss - I will dare whilst others wait ;).
I have friends in England who are non-religious who don't like drinking, but they like music, and they don't like TV.., perhaps people who want to feel more safe when they go out, or people who are health conscious.., a good example is the millions of people nation-wide who are in the gym everynight, they know how the consumption of alcohol is counterproductive to their training, then you have to consider that their are more people in the world who are religious than people who are not..
You can be fooled in the west to think that your the majority in atheism (alcohol allowed), but when you look at the figures it is clear that the majority of people are infact religious (alcohol forbbiden), this is true in christianity, islam and judeism.., and most of the other major world religions, which accounts for 5/6 of the worlds population...
So it is clear that the main clubbing/nightlife industry is aimed at non-religious people who are infact a minority, this is why clubbing culture is mostly present in countries that have largely neglected their nations predominent religion, partly to balme is capitalism..,so the imirgrants seem like the only religious folks..
Now find a country where religion is still largely practiced and respected, but starting to be influenced by the west, so the clubs that have opened.. sell alcohol, now what about taking the best from the west and combining it with the local (more eastern) culture?, surely that would form a better balance..and prevent the currentely safe streets from turning into what England is today, where alot of glass bottles are thrown at the heads of anyone who's not in their gang!..
The point here, is not to open up a club like pacha and just not sell alcohol, that would be a disaster.., but to open something that doesn't sell alcohol, with a whole new target market, this means things would need to be changed from what has become a tradition in clubs.., infact it may only resemble a club in the way that it's a nightspot for people to gather and socialise whilst listening to some of the best world music.. in a relaxing environment with some amusements.., that inturn promotes a nice and not nasty culture..
Bagpuss - I will dare whilst others wait ;).
Mensajes Fri 12 Aug 05 @ 7:25 pm
vpcdj
US here.
I read The Economist (magazine) and there's sumthing interesting i read there about asians/foreigners. And that was during the day they bash american/western culture but at night they enjoy it! lol
During the day theyr western culture haters but at night they'r dancing to our music. I even saw a special on Saudi where they have arabian kids driving around playing rap music. lol
I am a light drinker myself and alcohol is not a big deal for me at the clubs. if the music's presented well it sets my mood and can even dance by myself.
while djing i'm better at the job tipsy. i'm more relaxed. and generally create way better mixes.
drinking lightly i think is ok. but alcoholics do so coz they just have their own problems. then again who am i to judge them?
i think the best way to do what ur trying to do is have people bring in their own alcohol. then again maybe u just dont want alcohol around u. Here in the US most places with alcoholic licences must stop selling alcohol at 2am. most of them close at that time (coz whats the point of keeping the place open without selling alcohol? $$ )
In the after hours people bring in their own alcohol (and even sell to each other).
-
a lot of christians drink. catholics drink. protestants drink. i'm catholic. rather supposed to be :)
-
bars here in general sell beer in cans and liquor in plastic cups. here in the US people just dont want to be quick to fight coz of law suits. generally.
-
2 The Extremes:
There'r 2 type of extremes. the easy nights and the 'hard nights'.
maybe where u at a non-alcoholic bar could work. here in the US hip-hop dominates all music. i dont see a non-alcoholic bar being successful without drugs (& alcohol). teen nights just arent successful. they arent because the clubs would rather have sumthin else that involves [legal] alcohol sale that will generate more money.
[here] a teen night operates because the adult nights keep it alive. and the people who operate such non alcoholic clubs are rich people who'r not really under financial pressure.
The other extreme are the hardcore clubs. these clubs are owned by the big dogs like drug dealers who too dont worry about the money the club makes coz they make a lot more 'in other things'.
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Drugs & Alcohol & Crime:
Another problem with teen-non alcoholic clubs is the bad boys who are attracted to these places. drugs find their way in there. and u have some silly girl who'll overdose on something that could result to death. then those r other pressures the club faces from the city. so even the easy nights must prove they have adequate security for cities to give them a pass. and security costs $$.
u could have a perfect plan but the underground could pull u back. its almost impossible to stop the underground if ur against it (eg. riaa vs. p2p). like if u dont want alcohol too hard in ur joint, the underworld could shut u down.
U still have to deal with alcohol coz u'll have people drinking in the parking lot. which means u have to have security there monitoring the parking lot or else any crimes in that area will be associated with ur club.
In this city, the techno joints get raid on by cops and they bust large amounts of drugs. my friend was a guest dj in one of them. and they actually busted in while he was djing and arrested him too. lol (i'm a strictly hip-hop dj).
if the city doesnt like a spot because of crime, they have cops all around the area and arrest people for every little thing until people are scared to go to it.
-
In the end i guess its all about image and reputation and if the owner is cool the love is felt by everyone. if everything is cool the city cops dont put pressure on the club... and people generally respect the place.
but it will take some $$$ to set up a good foundation. sound proofing and security.
then dont forget there's gonna be a hit song that promotes drugs and alcohol. how would it fit in ur club. eg. i find it contradictory how a soft club can play hard rap songs yet ban people wearing certain attire.
----
vp. aka anon
I read The Economist (magazine) and there's sumthing interesting i read there about asians/foreigners. And that was during the day they bash american/western culture but at night they enjoy it! lol
During the day theyr western culture haters but at night they'r dancing to our music. I even saw a special on Saudi where they have arabian kids driving around playing rap music. lol
I am a light drinker myself and alcohol is not a big deal for me at the clubs. if the music's presented well it sets my mood and can even dance by myself.
while djing i'm better at the job tipsy. i'm more relaxed. and generally create way better mixes.
drinking lightly i think is ok. but alcoholics do so coz they just have their own problems. then again who am i to judge them?
i think the best way to do what ur trying to do is have people bring in their own alcohol. then again maybe u just dont want alcohol around u. Here in the US most places with alcoholic licences must stop selling alcohol at 2am. most of them close at that time (coz whats the point of keeping the place open without selling alcohol? $$ )
In the after hours people bring in their own alcohol (and even sell to each other).
-
a lot of christians drink. catholics drink. protestants drink. i'm catholic. rather supposed to be :)
-
bars here in general sell beer in cans and liquor in plastic cups. here in the US people just dont want to be quick to fight coz of law suits. generally.
-
2 The Extremes:
There'r 2 type of extremes. the easy nights and the 'hard nights'.
maybe where u at a non-alcoholic bar could work. here in the US hip-hop dominates all music. i dont see a non-alcoholic bar being successful without drugs (& alcohol). teen nights just arent successful. they arent because the clubs would rather have sumthin else that involves [legal] alcohol sale that will generate more money.
[here] a teen night operates because the adult nights keep it alive. and the people who operate such non alcoholic clubs are rich people who'r not really under financial pressure.
The other extreme are the hardcore clubs. these clubs are owned by the big dogs like drug dealers who too dont worry about the money the club makes coz they make a lot more 'in other things'.
-
Drugs & Alcohol & Crime:
Another problem with teen-non alcoholic clubs is the bad boys who are attracted to these places. drugs find their way in there. and u have some silly girl who'll overdose on something that could result to death. then those r other pressures the club faces from the city. so even the easy nights must prove they have adequate security for cities to give them a pass. and security costs $$.
u could have a perfect plan but the underground could pull u back. its almost impossible to stop the underground if ur against it (eg. riaa vs. p2p). like if u dont want alcohol too hard in ur joint, the underworld could shut u down.
U still have to deal with alcohol coz u'll have people drinking in the parking lot. which means u have to have security there monitoring the parking lot or else any crimes in that area will be associated with ur club.
In this city, the techno joints get raid on by cops and they bust large amounts of drugs. my friend was a guest dj in one of them. and they actually busted in while he was djing and arrested him too. lol (i'm a strictly hip-hop dj).
if the city doesnt like a spot because of crime, they have cops all around the area and arrest people for every little thing until people are scared to go to it.
-
In the end i guess its all about image and reputation and if the owner is cool the love is felt by everyone. if everything is cool the city cops dont put pressure on the club... and people generally respect the place.
but it will take some $$$ to set up a good foundation. sound proofing and security.
then dont forget there's gonna be a hit song that promotes drugs and alcohol. how would it fit in ur club. eg. i find it contradictory how a soft club can play hard rap songs yet ban people wearing certain attire.
----
vp. aka anon
Mensajes Fri 12 Aug 05 @ 9:17 pm
bagpuss
I thankyou for your response, your right in that society takes it's toll on people, foreigners in Englnad often adapt to the culture and come to love, just as U.S soldiers in Iraq converting to Islam.
That is a matter of social science, and that is exactly where I wish to play my role, I wish to create a balanced venue to bridge the gap, hit the market of people who usually watch movies on saturday nights.., i'm not sure your quite on the same page as me..
But then, it can be hard to imagine any club that isn't as the clubs you see on your doorstep..
Also I wouldn't play 'bad' music, only the nice stuff..soul, jazz etc.
Maybe i'm an idealist? :).
That is a matter of social science, and that is exactly where I wish to play my role, I wish to create a balanced venue to bridge the gap, hit the market of people who usually watch movies on saturday nights.., i'm not sure your quite on the same page as me..
But then, it can be hard to imagine any club that isn't as the clubs you see on your doorstep..
Also I wouldn't play 'bad' music, only the nice stuff..soul, jazz etc.
Maybe i'm an idealist? :).
Mensajes Fri 12 Aug 05 @ 9:38 pm
Raw-Bear
I just have to say this bagpuss. Alcohol is ok to drink according to the bible, but being drunk is not. With that said I also have to say that there is a lot of " closed minded " people posting here. Some one said keep the club open to open minded people and I agree. Keep it closed to people who have been drinking and/or are high and people who are intollerant of others. Just keep focused on the fact that its about the music. When you find a spot start advertising. The ideas about getting the breakfast crowd was good too. I think those that drink to enjoy themselves are letting themselves be cheated if they don't go to a no alcohol club. Once word gets around that you allow no booze, adults will flock to the place as well as responsable kids.
As far as not playing the "bad" music, I think you are making a mistake. The jazz and blues are ok for daytime and even a theme night, but if you want to make money you may have to play the "bad" music.
Take a look at whats being offered in your area and go from there. Too bad you were not in my neck of the woods as I would help you out any way I could. When this club is up and running I think you will be happy with the $$$ comming in the door.
As far as not playing the "bad" music, I think you are making a mistake. The jazz and blues are ok for daytime and even a theme night, but if you want to make money you may have to play the "bad" music.
Take a look at whats being offered in your area and go from there. Too bad you were not in my neck of the woods as I would help you out any way I could. When this club is up and running I think you will be happy with the $$$ comming in the door.
Mensajes Fri 12 Aug 05 @ 10:36 pm
bagpuss
Yes and we know about the drunkness at 2:00am!, lool, their should be a game show where contenders have to run into a nightclub and try and find someone who isn't drunk within 60 secounds and if they do it they get a free years supply of alcohol!, hehe..
It would be an incredibly sad world if people couldn't go out and socialise in a nice venue with nice music without the need of toxic substances and drugs..
But like I said the idea is not a club minus alcohol..
When I say no bad music, that means I will do my best to keep the club known for it's great music, I just wont play extreme music for devil worshipping..(not f this f that or 165bpm hardcore), other than that i'm open to all music..
It would be an incredibly sad world if people couldn't go out and socialise in a nice venue with nice music without the need of toxic substances and drugs..
But like I said the idea is not a club minus alcohol..
When I say no bad music, that means I will do my best to keep the club known for it's great music, I just wont play extreme music for devil worshipping..(not f this f that or 165bpm hardcore), other than that i'm open to all music..
Mensajes Fri 12 Aug 05 @ 11:41 pm
Dj Xeo
if you have a venue ina city center you wont find anyone walking down the road looking for a potery reading, everyone walking down the strpi on a saturday night is doing so looking for drinking, loud music, as many pulls as they can get and for as cheap as possible. drink is the best way of parting people with their cash as it coems in small installemnts and makes the next drink seem like a better value proposition. i didnt catch where you were planning to open this club but here in the uk it just would not happen. what does happen however is coffe bars like global and moonlighters make good money during the day with non-live music during the day and a dj at night. but both these places sell alcohol. people out late(er) at night are there for the reason that everyone is, you just wont find your audience amoung them. unless you can build a dedicated, loyal, frequent crowd before you go bust it wont happen, it would be nice im not going to rant about my personal views on drink and drugs sufice to say i appreciate that it would make a nice change to see a new club open without adverts on drink prices at the door. but a late night music venu wont work unless there is a bar (or other illeagal inebreatants) in my estimation.
Mensajes Mon 15 Aug 05 @ 2:20 am
bagpuss
Actually in the larger citys in the UK their are non-alcoholic social clubs, restraunts, coffe shops, nightspots etc, many of which are a great success.
They just aren't situated between the crazy horse saloon and the Irish bar!, they are often down the quiet streets, quite far away from the rest of the nightlife or nightdeath in the case of the UK, hehe.
The thing with the UK is that the drinking culture is massive, and the majority of the nationals their do drink, so it's not really the best example.., but as I said they do have them, this is because of several reasons, the UK is diverse and you have a great freedom their, so their are a good number of people who either quit drinking or people who have never touched alcohol, for these people in the larger cities their is a profitable market, and remember the UK has everything because of it's great wealth, so you will find alot of things with alot of success, that stray away from the common market.
I'm actually intending to implement this in Sarajevo, one of the last undiscoverd tourist destinations in Europe since the war, the culture here is really quite different to that of the UK's, as you'll read in earlier posts, the people here are less interested in alcohol, rather it is closer to a 50 50 split in the population, but the country is being invested in, and it's really heading towards Europe, and with it the culture is changing, consider the average young adult here to be moderate in drinking, complete minority of people who get drunk, and a high proportion of the people totally not drinking.
Most of the "clubs" here DO sell alcohol, but most of the nightlife DOES NOT.., you'd probably have to see it to fully understand this..
They just aren't situated between the crazy horse saloon and the Irish bar!, they are often down the quiet streets, quite far away from the rest of the nightlife or nightdeath in the case of the UK, hehe.
The thing with the UK is that the drinking culture is massive, and the majority of the nationals their do drink, so it's not really the best example.., but as I said they do have them, this is because of several reasons, the UK is diverse and you have a great freedom their, so their are a good number of people who either quit drinking or people who have never touched alcohol, for these people in the larger cities their is a profitable market, and remember the UK has everything because of it's great wealth, so you will find alot of things with alot of success, that stray away from the common market.
I'm actually intending to implement this in Sarajevo, one of the last undiscoverd tourist destinations in Europe since the war, the culture here is really quite different to that of the UK's, as you'll read in earlier posts, the people here are less interested in alcohol, rather it is closer to a 50 50 split in the population, but the country is being invested in, and it's really heading towards Europe, and with it the culture is changing, consider the average young adult here to be moderate in drinking, complete minority of people who get drunk, and a high proportion of the people totally not drinking.
Most of the "clubs" here DO sell alcohol, but most of the nightlife DOES NOT.., you'd probably have to see it to fully understand this..
Mensajes Mon 15 Aug 05 @ 12:38 pm