dj muppetjnr
hey i am getting a new laptop tomorrow but dont no what to get any suggestions for 1000 or under just for audio mixing and just entertainment any one got any good ones????
Mensajes Mon 04 Jun 07 @ 10:56 pm
A Man and His Music
dj muppetjnr wrote :
hey i am getting a new laptop tomorrow but dont no what to get any suggestions for 1000 or under just for audio mixing and just entertainment any one got any good ones????
Go to dellepp.com. They are running some great promotions. Hopefully you or someone you know works for a large corp. In the pulldown menu, select large corp, to get a great deal.
Mensajes Mon 04 Jun 07 @ 11:19 pm
dj muppetjnr
sorry dont no any one with a large company but thanks anymore suggestions anyone
Mensajes Mon 04 Jun 07 @ 11:22 pm
A Man and His Music
You don't have to own the corp, just work for one. You don't know any one who works for a corp, with more then 35,000 employees? GM, Merck, Ford? Just go there and try it.
Mensajes Mon 04 Jun 07 @ 11:43 pm
A Man and His Music
I'm sorry, that should be 3,500 employees.
Mensajes Tue 05 Jun 07 @ 5:07 am
ConQuest
A little bit more than you stated initially, but a much better investment overall for a longer period of time in terms of reliability, stability, security, and productivity:
http://www.apple.com/macbook/macbook.html
Throw windows on it if you have to (no, unfortunately running windows on Mac OS X will NOT make windows any better, but at least windows won't mess up the Mac portion if/when windows takes a dive) and have 2 computers in one; a Mac and windows pc.
- VT ConQuest
(Visual Turntablist)
http://www.apple.com/macbook/macbook.html
Throw windows on it if you have to (no, unfortunately running windows on Mac OS X will NOT make windows any better, but at least windows won't mess up the Mac portion if/when windows takes a dive) and have 2 computers in one; a Mac and windows pc.
- VT ConQuest
(Visual Turntablist)
Mensajes Tue 05 Jun 07 @ 4:07 pm
Niems
DO NOT get a Dell whatever you do.
If you have a search through forums, most users have had unsolvable problems on them. This is due to how Dell themselves manufacture the laptop.
If you have a search through forums, most users have had unsolvable problems on them. This is due to how Dell themselves manufacture the laptop.
Mensajes Tue 05 Jun 07 @ 5:14 pm
spinnaJ
Yeah.. dont get dell....even HP is better than that:) But personally i would say go for macbook pro rite now. Just a bit more $$$ but it more worth it n also hehe u can use 2 OS on 1 com as if u own a pc n mac.
Mensajes Tue 05 Jun 07 @ 7:05 pm
discobrian24
I thrid that NO DELL cause DELL=HELL trust me, but there are some models that users have had no issues with so I think it is a hit and miss situation.
Mensajes Tue 05 Jun 07 @ 9:42 pm
ConQuest
spinnaJ wrote :
But personally i would say go for macbook pro rite now. Just a bit more $$$ but it more worth it n also hehe u can use 2 OS on 1 com as if u own a pc n mac.
Well, dj muppetjnr said that he had a budget of around $1000 and that he was just going to be using the audio features of VDJ and some entertainment use. That means that even an $1,100 MacBook (not the MacBook Pro which starts at $2000) will be just fine.
Even if he chooses to start using the video features of VDJ, according to member "k_one" the MacBook's are fine for that too. Then again, "fine" is relative according to one's definition of what's acceptable and what is not.
However, yes the point is that why buy a $1000 windows computer in this day and age when you can get a Mac for $1100 and throw windows on it IF you have to and have windows run 100% natively? Again, only IF you need windows though.
Most people are finding that they don't need windows at all, just Office, for which there is a Mac version AND there are better and less expensive alternatives made by Apple for both Word and PowerPoint if either or both of those are the only Office applications needed.
If VDJ is gonna be the primary use, then I believe VDJ Mac will be on par with VDJ windows soon enough, therefore letting Mac OS X's abilities outweigh windows' vulnerabilities and proving to be a superior solution all around.
Mensajes Tue 05 Jun 07 @ 9:52 pm
grug
I'm getting really sick of all the long winded messages by Conquest raving and "bible bashing" on these forums about how mac is so much better. You dont see any PC users raving rhetoric on the mac forum to anwyhere near the same extent or as repetative.
Simple fact is, you buy cheap you get cheap whether you go mac or pc your going to get a slow system. If you get Mac you'll have to wait longer for VDJ software to be as compatible or have as many features. If your a dummy user that doesnt know how to get the best out of their machine then of course your going to have to spend more on hardware so go mac. If you do know how to shop around and configure your machine properly then get a PC.
I run a partitioned drive just for VDJ which is exactly what a Mac user should do also if they are serious about having a dedicated system to DJ. It doesnt need a virus scanner or any other bloatware installed. It cost me a heck of a lot cheaper than any Mac and the performance is better.
As for macs finally reducing their costs around about now, just another example about how they are behind the other multinational companies that did their price drops months ago.
</rant>
I suggest going and getting some sort of finance with very low interest or a "nothing to pay for awhile" period. Its much better to get some decent gear from the start. If you know your going to get some work out of it you can pay it off very quickly then its all money in the wallet! If you go for the interest-free period type loans make sure you pay it off before the date they start slugging you with the fees and charges because they then usually hit you nice and hard with them. You might be able to afford a mac this way also if you look at some sort of payment scheme.
If you go for cheap gear more than likely find you will have more problems and be spending more upgrading or having to buy alot more as your business grows.
Simple fact is, you buy cheap you get cheap whether you go mac or pc your going to get a slow system. If you get Mac you'll have to wait longer for VDJ software to be as compatible or have as many features. If your a dummy user that doesnt know how to get the best out of their machine then of course your going to have to spend more on hardware so go mac. If you do know how to shop around and configure your machine properly then get a PC.
I run a partitioned drive just for VDJ which is exactly what a Mac user should do also if they are serious about having a dedicated system to DJ. It doesnt need a virus scanner or any other bloatware installed. It cost me a heck of a lot cheaper than any Mac and the performance is better.
As for macs finally reducing their costs around about now, just another example about how they are behind the other multinational companies that did their price drops months ago.
</rant>
I suggest going and getting some sort of finance with very low interest or a "nothing to pay for awhile" period. Its much better to get some decent gear from the start. If you know your going to get some work out of it you can pay it off very quickly then its all money in the wallet! If you go for the interest-free period type loans make sure you pay it off before the date they start slugging you with the fees and charges because they then usually hit you nice and hard with them. You might be able to afford a mac this way also if you look at some sort of payment scheme.
If you go for cheap gear more than likely find you will have more problems and be spending more upgrading or having to buy alot more as your business grows.
Mensajes Wed 06 Jun 07 @ 12:54 am
Tear Em 'Up
Wow Grug.. when you let go.....lol..........excellant points though...
Mensajes Wed 06 Jun 07 @ 2:26 am
ConQuest
TearEmUp wrote :
Wow Grug.. when you let go.....lol..........excellant points though...
Simple questions and/or requested advice on purchases by VDJ/VV users deserve honest answers which I provide based on my 17 years of experience on both windows and Mac platforms.
Welcome to the GENERAL DISCUSSION forums. Not either the windows (pc) or Mac forums.
Grug's buying tips are good, however any dullard can attain that info. Just read the promo/credit T's & C's and you will be as "knowledgeable" as Grug.
If it were a year ago (or even as early as 3 months ago) and I didn't have the responsibilities that I do now towards representing certain things, I would actually post my wrath of knowledge in the face of Grug's basic... um... ok, I'll be nice... "lack of knowledge" that he has exhibited.
I've written out my response, but I don't want to be responsible for breaking the poor guys (unsubstantiated) feeling of righteousness and enlightenment with my accuracy and (I can assure) wealth of experience over his computer useage/buying 101 based misinformation, no matter how amateurishly wrong he may be on several key points that I can tear him apart on.
This isn't the place for that though... this is: http://www.virtualdj.com/forums/62763/General_Discussion/The_Mac_vs_PC_thread_(only_open_thread_regarding_the_topic)_____).html?highlight=mac%20vs%20pc
That said, I'll withold further comment and get this thread back on track.
Good luck on your computer purchasing decision dj muppetjnr! =)
Mensajes Wed 06 Jun 07 @ 5:30 am
grug
Conquest, a few weeks ago when I replied to your last drivel about Macs I said that the forum had been closed and doesnt allow any more posts. Not that its any point anyway because Mac zealots always have had blind faith.
Ive worked in computer networks for 10 years now and most people who work with hardware in the last 5 years know that MAC = CRAP when it comes to comparing dollars. You cant give me the excuse that its like comparing apples to oranges also, thats just nonesense.
A PC computer bought at the same dollar price as the MAC was lasts around the same time.
In terms of hardware options MAC falls far behind. Just go to the online store to see what limited choices you have.
Software and viruses should not be an issue in this debate, you should be using either machine to just have virtual dj installed to get the maximum performance, if you want to install more crap then just partition (something mac users are more used to doing in the last 10 years). I dont like the user-friendly baby look of either OS so I configure it to be simple and fast.
To get back onto the topic now...I have used both for many years and I do recommend macs if you have no idea about computers and have extra money to waste, however this guy does not so for a grand you try to push in a MAC solution? HAH! If he only has a grand to spend Id say you'd get alot more for your money if you shopped around for a PC as long as you know how to configure it (some good blogs on here about that).
Ive worked in computer networks for 10 years now and most people who work with hardware in the last 5 years know that MAC = CRAP when it comes to comparing dollars. You cant give me the excuse that its like comparing apples to oranges also, thats just nonesense.
A PC computer bought at the same dollar price as the MAC was lasts around the same time.
In terms of hardware options MAC falls far behind. Just go to the online store to see what limited choices you have.
Software and viruses should not be an issue in this debate, you should be using either machine to just have virtual dj installed to get the maximum performance, if you want to install more crap then just partition (something mac users are more used to doing in the last 10 years). I dont like the user-friendly baby look of either OS so I configure it to be simple and fast.
To get back onto the topic now...I have used both for many years and I do recommend macs if you have no idea about computers and have extra money to waste, however this guy does not so for a grand you try to push in a MAC solution? HAH! If he only has a grand to spend Id say you'd get alot more for your money if you shopped around for a PC as long as you know how to configure it (some good blogs on here about that).
Mensajes Wed 06 Jun 07 @ 6:25 am
ConQuest
Yawn.
I'll give you the benefit of having more experience (time wise) than I thought you did, but still just slightly over half of my real world eexperience.
So why do you only seemingly have 1/10th the knowledge?
Unix Mac OS X vs. DOS/NT windows.
You're trying to tell me that "real" users would even blink twice before answering that question of which most of them would prefer? HA!
When one can absorb the ability to do everything that it's competition can (as Mac has done with windows), then it's further benefits will shine even brighter.
It's called "Domination through Assimilation". windows has gotten owned... and many windows users are realizing that they can own a LOT better than windows.
A nominal price increase for an exponentially better computing solution is no longer an issue for most people that rely far to heavily on their computers nowadays for more than just "connecting to the internet, writing Word documents,and playing games". They also rely on their computers in different scenarios nowadays like work, home and school... often now relying on one computer in all their different environments, where as in the past they would have a separate computer in each one.
The days of simple computer use where a severely flawed OS like windows was tolerable are GONE. Hence the reason that people are switching from windows to Mac in droves and we can probably count the number of Mac users switching to windows on one hand with all fingers severed.
Hell, even international governments and enterprise/corporate are realizing that it's all about using computers that can do EVERYTHING with a lower TCO:
Apple cracks top-10 server brands during first quarter
http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/07/06/04/apple_cracks_top_10_server_brands_during_first_quarter.html
I just find it hilarious personally that you keep referencing the industry when THIS is how Apple and it's Mac line is (and has been) outperforming the industry:
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/external/ibd.morningstar.com/quicktake/standard/client/shell/AP707.html?CN=AP707&valid=NO&set=new&ticker=aapl&x=0&y=0&view=snapshot&SITE=FLOCA&SECTION=MONEY_COMPLETE&TEMPLATE=
That steep upward spike in mid-2006 and continuing now is NOT attributable to the iPod either (that would be the steep spike from 2004 until mid 2006).
That almost year long stock spike is due to windows users switching to Macs by the hundreds of thousands year over year since 2005 (the iPhone is helping a little bit too lately).
Again, I yawn as a "blind Mac zealot" in the face of lowly microsft windows apologist excuses for a has been product like windows and company called microsoft.
In summary, I don't see a problem with telling someone that says that they have $1,000 to spend on a computer for audio mixing and some entertainment to spend only $100 more for a much better alternative.
I've explained to people why they should switch to a Mac for the past 5 years.
Now they just ask for Macs with hardly any questions asked.
The jig is up.
I'll give you the benefit of having more experience (time wise) than I thought you did, but still just slightly over half of my real world eexperience.
So why do you only seemingly have 1/10th the knowledge?
Unix Mac OS X vs. DOS/NT windows.
You're trying to tell me that "real" users would even blink twice before answering that question of which most of them would prefer? HA!
When one can absorb the ability to do everything that it's competition can (as Mac has done with windows), then it's further benefits will shine even brighter.
It's called "Domination through Assimilation". windows has gotten owned... and many windows users are realizing that they can own a LOT better than windows.
A nominal price increase for an exponentially better computing solution is no longer an issue for most people that rely far to heavily on their computers nowadays for more than just "connecting to the internet, writing Word documents,and playing games". They also rely on their computers in different scenarios nowadays like work, home and school... often now relying on one computer in all their different environments, where as in the past they would have a separate computer in each one.
The days of simple computer use where a severely flawed OS like windows was tolerable are GONE. Hence the reason that people are switching from windows to Mac in droves and we can probably count the number of Mac users switching to windows on one hand with all fingers severed.
Hell, even international governments and enterprise/corporate are realizing that it's all about using computers that can do EVERYTHING with a lower TCO:
Apple cracks top-10 server brands during first quarter
http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/07/06/04/apple_cracks_top_10_server_brands_during_first_quarter.html
I just find it hilarious personally that you keep referencing the industry when THIS is how Apple and it's Mac line is (and has been) outperforming the industry:
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/external/ibd.morningstar.com/quicktake/standard/client/shell/AP707.html?CN=AP707&valid=NO&set=new&ticker=aapl&x=0&y=0&view=snapshot&SITE=FLOCA&SECTION=MONEY_COMPLETE&TEMPLATE=
That steep upward spike in mid-2006 and continuing now is NOT attributable to the iPod either (that would be the steep spike from 2004 until mid 2006).
That almost year long stock spike is due to windows users switching to Macs by the hundreds of thousands year over year since 2005 (the iPhone is helping a little bit too lately).
Again, I yawn as a "blind Mac zealot" in the face of lowly microsft windows apologist excuses for a has been product like windows and company called microsoft.
In summary, I don't see a problem with telling someone that says that they have $1,000 to spend on a computer for audio mixing and some entertainment to spend only $100 more for a much better alternative.
I've explained to people why they should switch to a Mac for the past 5 years.
Now they just ask for Macs with hardly any questions asked.
The jig is up.
Mensajes Wed 06 Jun 07 @ 7:38 am
grug
You actually backed it up with some biased material & sources this time finally! I was wondering how long that would take. From all your posts ive read you really put the "Con" in ConQuest.
I'll keep repeating myself...I recommend Macs to stupid users that can afford it because its the best solution for them.
If your trying to do it on a BUDGET (a word most Mac users dont understand because they have the money to spend) then Mac is not for you.
If your trying to get the most for your money you wont get it with a mac. Every system I have bought in the past 5 years has easily out-benchmarked its mac priced equivalent.
I'll keep repeating myself...I recommend Macs to stupid users that can afford it because its the best solution for them.
If your trying to do it on a BUDGET (a word most Mac users dont understand because they have the money to spend) then Mac is not for you.
If your trying to get the most for your money you wont get it with a mac. Every system I have bought in the past 5 years has easily out-benchmarked its mac priced equivalent.
Mensajes Wed 06 Jun 07 @ 8:06 am
ConQuest
NO MORE RESPONSES WILL BE MADE BY ME ON THIS SUBJECT ON THIS THREAD AFTER THIS FINAL ONE.
I'm handing this thread back to "dj muppetjnr" in the hopes that he will get the advice he needs to make the decision that is best for him.
In regards to the server market research link, International Data Corporation is Apple biased how?
Oooh, because I was linking from AppleInsider who was syndicating that IDC report which was first syndicated by Digitmes.
Yeah, you're quite the genius.
In regards to the stock research link, Morningstar.com is Apple biased how?
The numbers are the numbers. You can wish upon a star all you want that they're not true, but lots of us don't have our heads stuck in the clouds, or as is your case, stuck up our own behinds.
It's actually the Quest part that I'm better known for. I speak the truth, crusade to provide it, and am not detoured by antiquated, mainstream, completely debunked misinformation or the spewers of it, "Drudge".
Hey skyfxl, dj-in-norway, and all the many other formerly windows only users here on the VDJ forums who have recently bought Macs or have publicly stated that you're going too... I'm sorry to hear that you all are really stupid but rich. =(
I was unaware of that fact until Grug enlightened me just now.
Especially you sky. I DO know how little you know about computers. ;)
Wow.
It's like talking to a brick wall, but even less comprehensive.
"dj muppetjnr" said that he had about $1000 to spend for a computer for VDJ's audio features and some entertainment needs.
The MacBook I proposed is $1100. How dare I propose something so out of range! ... AND it comes with high quality, easy to use software worth WAY more than $100 that he will probably use and seamlessly integrates with eachother? ... AND he won't have to go waste way more than that $100 difference on security/maintenance/recovery software because we Mac users don't need all that? ... AND he can turn it into a windows pc if needed for the cost of a windows license which is a lot less than ANY windows computer no matter how cheap and a piece of junk it is?
I guess I really am unthoughtful.
Uh oh, NetworkWorld AND this guy are TOTALLY Mac biased. (well, actually now they might be only because like me, they have realized the truth about Mac vs. windows by being prominent users of both... but they weren't Mac biased - if in fact they are which he states that he's not in the opening article - when the article was being written).
http://www.networkworld.com/best/2006/022706bestbreaker-schwartau.html
"...now imagine desktop and laptop computers that don't crash for months at a time. Imagine PCs that are close to immune to the endless train wrecks caused by viruses and worms. Imagine increasing the performance of a secure computing environment by as much as 400% overnight. Imagine an engineering company that builds and delivers properly integrated hardware, properly configured security default conditions - almost plug and play. Imagine a computing environment in which the endpoint is not a viable target for the bad guys. And imagine that the total cost of ownership for these benefits is lower than what you are paying...."
Here you go. Download the Mac vs. windows pc TCO (Total Cost of Ownership) Excel tool for fuchs sake:
http://www.thesecurityawarenesscompany.com/TCO/Winn%27s%20TCO%20WinTel%20vs%20Mac.xls
"After 16 successful Mad as Hell rants with hundreds of comments and nationwide attention about my switch to Mac, I've developed these two tools to show the world that the switch is worth every penny and will save you plenty over a very short period of time."
As much as you're barely double digit experience is worth, I'll listen to people with at least as much experience as mine or more.
I like to progress, and have no desire to regress by taking meaningless advice from people who haven't gotten to where I'm at yet.
Try to keep up with the rest of the class... then you might not get so SCHOOLED Grug.
I'm handing this thread back to "dj muppetjnr" in the hopes that he will get the advice he needs to make the decision that is best for him.
grug wrote :
You actually backed it up with some biased material & sources this time finally! I was wondering how long that would take.
In regards to the server market research link, International Data Corporation is Apple biased how?
Oooh, because I was linking from AppleInsider who was syndicating that IDC report which was first syndicated by Digitmes.
Yeah, you're quite the genius.
In regards to the stock research link, Morningstar.com is Apple biased how?
The numbers are the numbers. You can wish upon a star all you want that they're not true, but lots of us don't have our heads stuck in the clouds, or as is your case, stuck up our own behinds.
grug wrote :
From all your posts ive read you really put the "Con" in ConQuest.
It's actually the Quest part that I'm better known for. I speak the truth, crusade to provide it, and am not detoured by antiquated, mainstream, completely debunked misinformation or the spewers of it, "Drudge".
grug wrote :
I'll keep repeating myself...I recommend Macs to stupid users that can afford it because its the best solution for them.
Hey skyfxl, dj-in-norway, and all the many other formerly windows only users here on the VDJ forums who have recently bought Macs or have publicly stated that you're going too... I'm sorry to hear that you all are really stupid but rich. =(
I was unaware of that fact until Grug enlightened me just now.
Especially you sky. I DO know how little you know about computers. ;)
grug wrote :
If your trying to do it on a BUDGET (a word most Mac users dont understand because they have the money to spend) then Mac is not for you.
Wow.
It's like talking to a brick wall, but even less comprehensive.
"dj muppetjnr" said that he had about $1000 to spend for a computer for VDJ's audio features and some entertainment needs.
The MacBook I proposed is $1100. How dare I propose something so out of range! ... AND it comes with high quality, easy to use software worth WAY more than $100 that he will probably use and seamlessly integrates with eachother? ... AND he won't have to go waste way more than that $100 difference on security/maintenance/recovery software because we Mac users don't need all that? ... AND he can turn it into a windows pc if needed for the cost of a windows license which is a lot less than ANY windows computer no matter how cheap and a piece of junk it is?
I guess I really am unthoughtful.
grug wrote :
If your trying to get the most for your money you wont get it with a mac. Every system I have bought in the past 5 years has easily out-benchmarked its mac priced equivalent.
Uh oh, NetworkWorld AND this guy are TOTALLY Mac biased. (well, actually now they might be only because like me, they have realized the truth about Mac vs. windows by being prominent users of both... but they weren't Mac biased - if in fact they are which he states that he's not in the opening article - when the article was being written).
http://www.networkworld.com/best/2006/022706bestbreaker-schwartau.html
"...now imagine desktop and laptop computers that don't crash for months at a time. Imagine PCs that are close to immune to the endless train wrecks caused by viruses and worms. Imagine increasing the performance of a secure computing environment by as much as 400% overnight. Imagine an engineering company that builds and delivers properly integrated hardware, properly configured security default conditions - almost plug and play. Imagine a computing environment in which the endpoint is not a viable target for the bad guys. And imagine that the total cost of ownership for these benefits is lower than what you are paying...."
Here you go. Download the Mac vs. windows pc TCO (Total Cost of Ownership) Excel tool for fuchs sake:
http://www.thesecurityawarenesscompany.com/TCO/Winn%27s%20TCO%20WinTel%20vs%20Mac.xls
"After 16 successful Mad as Hell rants with hundreds of comments and nationwide attention about my switch to Mac, I've developed these two tools to show the world that the switch is worth every penny and will save you plenty over a very short period of time."
As much as you're barely double digit experience is worth, I'll listen to people with at least as much experience as mine or more.
I like to progress, and have no desire to regress by taking meaningless advice from people who haven't gotten to where I'm at yet.
Try to keep up with the rest of the class... then you might not get so SCHOOLED Grug.
Mensajes Wed 06 Jun 07 @ 12:12 pm
tayla
the next time i can't get to sleep i'm reading this post or anything else to do with macs....
Tayla
Tayla
Mensajes Wed 06 Jun 07 @ 12:29 pm
grug
Of course I didnt read most of you response, I mean really hands up who wouldnt skim over everything you read. Most of the times I just ignore it but even I get sick of the mac crap every now and again. I really dont have the time unlike yourself I dont need to go do my research because I know from the years I have used both Mac and PC that Mac only performs better when you spend more and dont know how to configure windows properly.
This is totally pointless its like trying to ask someone why they think there is a God and the response is "because the bible tells me so". Your never going to win THAT argument and I know Im never going to win THIS one because your a zealot of a different scale. It was the typical Mac "superiority" response I was expecting.
I would respond with better facts about how lacking in security OSX really has been but YOU closed the topic even though your extremely quick to point others to respond in another closed forum that they cant reply to. You do seem to have more time than myself to waste also.
Im not the only one that yawns at your long winded responses go check the other forum responses everytime you yadda yadda yadda about you and your Mac.
This is totally pointless its like trying to ask someone why they think there is a God and the response is "because the bible tells me so". Your never going to win THAT argument and I know Im never going to win THIS one because your a zealot of a different scale. It was the typical Mac "superiority" response I was expecting.
I would respond with better facts about how lacking in security OSX really has been but YOU closed the topic even though your extremely quick to point others to respond in another closed forum that they cant reply to. You do seem to have more time than myself to waste also.
Im not the only one that yawns at your long winded responses go check the other forum responses everytime you yadda yadda yadda about you and your Mac.
Mensajes Wed 06 Jun 07 @ 12:36 pm
DJ Marcel_1
There is no Zealot like a CONverted Zealot.
Mensajes Wed 06 Jun 07 @ 3:41 pm
