CuzImJay
Hey, do you have a problem with virtual dj on your Mac. Well here is the solve all answer. Install windows on it with Boot Camp, Parallels or VMware. Why, you may ask? Because virtual vinyl only works perfected on Windows. Now you may say, how do you know? Because I have a Mac.... Not just any Mac. A brand new that beats all of the requirements by Virtual DJ hardware standards. Virtual DJ has flaws on Mac.... I don't know which one is worse Windows Vista or Virtual DJ (only on Mac). Software should say compatible with Mac with some errors and limited user plug-ins... LOL! You know you want to laugh deep down inside and partially pissed too. Forget the extra plug-ins that you don't get because you don't have windows... Make it run correctly on a Mac first. It runs great on Windows though, but why buy the software if you have a Mac. There are other video dj softwares out there that work. Just some food for thought... Eat up!
Mensajes Thu 07 Aug 08 @ 2:36 am
spinnaJ
What problem with ur VV may i ask?? I use on mac natively and i dun have major problem to say the least.
Mensajes Thu 07 Aug 08 @ 2:46 am
CuzImJay
I've posted before... I get error messages... Freezes among other things that I don't get when I use it on windows. I now run windows on my mac. I was pissed at the time because of having to buy windows just so it would work properly. Any problem when dealing with music is a major problem... It messes up the flow of everything.
Mensajes Thu 07 Aug 08 @ 8:53 am
djcel
Which version are you currently using? I hope you downloaded 5.0.7?
Mensajes Thu 07 Aug 08 @ 6:23 pm
CuzImJay
It was the 5.0.7 that was giving me the problems... The earlier version worked fine. I'm now using my mac with the windows application for virtual dj. No problem... I'll probably switch back when 5.2 is out for virtual vinyl users. If it is coming out.
Mensajes Thu 07 Aug 08 @ 9:29 pm
lilrazzzzz
I notice my CPU is running 50-75% when running VDJ using VMware...I was thinking of using bootcamp, but i read to take the greatest advantage of the virtual memory--mac recommends you partition 32GB... But VDJ sure doesn't need 32GB to run! lol Have you played 4 hour shows with VMware or where your CPU is running fairly high?
Mensajes Wed 13 Aug 08 @ 8:45 pm
mauvelez
spinnaJ wrote :
What problem with ur VV may i ask?? I use on mac natively and i dun have major problem to say the least.
I switched to Mac just because Virtual Vinyl did not work in Vista 64 and I can't be more disappointed. I still have my old laptop and almost every other job, I have to switch to it.
1st: Audio error every time I conect the audio card., 2nd: Most of the pluggings don't work in Mac, 3rd: The audio card driver in mac is not finished (outputs are incorrect), 4th Video Transitions look better in PC, 5th: Database management has a lot of problems in Mac (Read all the ID3 tags posts), 6th: Virtual Vinyl runs slower in a new Mac than in an older laptop...
Mensajes Fri 15 Aug 08 @ 11:30 am
spinnaJ
Quote :
1st: Audio error every time I conect the audio card., 2nd: Most of the pluggings don't work in Mac, 3rd: The audio card driver in mac is not finished (outputs are incorrect), 4th Video Transitions look better in PC, 5th: Database management has a lot of problems in Mac (Read all the ID3 tags posts), 6th: Virtual Vinyl runs slower in a new Mac than in an older laptop...
1st: Audio error every time I conect the audio card., 2nd: Most of the pluggings don't work in Mac, 3rd: The audio card driver in mac is not finished (outputs are incorrect), 4th Video Transitions look better in PC, 5th: Database management has a lot of problems in Mac (Read all the ID3 tags posts), 6th: Virtual Vinyl runs slower in a new Mac than in an older laptop...
1. Do remember to attached the vv box to the mac first before u boot up. It might help. Anyway what version did u use? V5.07?
2. The plugins werk in mac and there are more now. Pls look at the download plugin n see those with mac download on it. While the plugin for PC, yes that don't werk cos it need to be convert to mac platform by the author.
3. Define more on this pls. Urs nvv is native to VDJ. So what is ur setting n what do u mean by this?
4. Hmm, i find that abt the same but i find that doing video on mac is better than PC or do u mean on PC it look better cos it support more transitions?
5. Database, Im sure it will be improved in future release.
6. Hmm again this im not so sure what do u mean. Pls elaborate. Thanks.
Regards;)
Mensajes Fri 15 Aug 08 @ 3:06 pm
mauvelez
1: I have tried everything. It eventually works and works ok, but when you close the application a big warning tells you there is a problem with the audio card also the audio card doesn't work right away (Like everything else in mac) you have to deselect the card, select the mac built in card and then select the VV audio card again... Ver. 5.0.7
2. I'm running my mac and VV in XP and I love it(So I won't be playing with the Mac pluggins.)
3. I am new to mac but when you plug something (besides the VV audio card) you understand why mac is better. It is real Plug and Play, Like the SERATO Card, that it just work. With the VV you have to tweek it. That should be done by the person writing the software for the audio card (Driver), not by the final user.(No excuses here).The audio card have three outputs, when you restart the computer, the output selection changes, from output 2, to output 3, and so on...then you have to go and switch cables at the audio card and mixer. that is awful.....
4. The same Mac(In ox 10 video transitions look 2D, in XP video transitions look 3D).
5 You agree!
6. In my old Compaq p4 1 processor, it works fine, In my New Mac in OX10, It runs slower than the Compaq (More time loading songs, aplication feel heavy for the computer), MAC in XP, Flys like a Butterfly...
I know I'm very critical but I also preffer Virtual Vinyl VV, over serato many times, I have been troubleshooting computers and audio systems for a long time, but for a LIVE application, things should be more stable.
Cordially
Mauricio Velez
2. I'm running my mac and VV in XP and I love it(So I won't be playing with the Mac pluggins.)
3. I am new to mac but when you plug something (besides the VV audio card) you understand why mac is better. It is real Plug and Play, Like the SERATO Card, that it just work. With the VV you have to tweek it. That should be done by the person writing the software for the audio card (Driver), not by the final user.(No excuses here).The audio card have three outputs, when you restart the computer, the output selection changes, from output 2, to output 3, and so on...then you have to go and switch cables at the audio card and mixer. that is awful.....
4. The same Mac(In ox 10 video transitions look 2D, in XP video transitions look 3D).
5 You agree!
6. In my old Compaq p4 1 processor, it works fine, In my New Mac in OX10, It runs slower than the Compaq (More time loading songs, aplication feel heavy for the computer), MAC in XP, Flys like a Butterfly...
I know I'm very critical but I also preffer Virtual Vinyl VV, over serato many times, I have been troubleshooting computers and audio systems for a long time, but for a LIVE application, things should be more stable.
Cordially
Mauricio Velez
Mensajes Tue 26 Aug 08 @ 7:23 am
CuzImJay
Thanks mauvelez,
I needed some back-up on this.... These beta guys need to get fired because I'm assuming that Virtual Dj went off of there opinions to ok the software. I can only speak for VV... and it totally sucks the big one on MAC. Everytime I close the program as stated in another forum I get stupid errors. Virtual Vinyl should get rebooted or some dumb @#$t at your earliest convenience to fix errors. I don't know nor do I care. I'm looking for a windows laptop now.... Hopefully, I luck up and pick the right one... LOL! Never had to do that when getting a computer or laptop for a game or something.... Usually the software programmers have a set standard for compatability for the product before it comes out... LOL! I guess you guys missed that one.... At this point, I'm very pissed. I used VV on my mac with the help of bootcamp with no problem. Hold on, except video... it seems my video card on my mac is only compatible with windows directx 10. Darn, I was almost in the clear. I even try to be delicate with the program like let it have time to know that a song has stopped and get a break between songs. Surprise... Mother @#$$% it still smacks me in the face like it's Rick James on crack. To be honest, I only bought Virtual Vinyl because it was cheaper than Serato and came with video. Come to find out Serato has video, but it's extra. I guess you just get what you pay for and there is no such thing as snagging a good deal anymore these days. You can say fix this... fix that... Which I have done? I'm pretty good with computers... Just cuz I dj doesn't mean I'm stupid. Right now, I wouldn't think about doing a gig with virtual vinyl unless it was Middle School students or if I could follow the yellow brick road and the VV wizard could give me the magic laptop. You guys are pathetic... I hope your motto isn't made by DJ's for DJ's! Now your probably going to say we have plenty of happy customers... Not... In the back of their DJ, Beatmatching brain they're I wonder if I chose a different program I would have had all these problems. Maybe we can just private message... Dennis Ferrer, Coldcut, or Carl Cox and they can tell us what it is they use... LOL! Problem fixed... right... They do live gigs all the time! I'm frustrated and have some change to spend... I know this is the mac forum, but what is the perfect laptop for this product... with no freezes, stupid errors, time code loss, sound card loss, did I miss anything? Seriously, you tell me what works correctly with this product and I will buy it. I want an alienware computer with 2.5 ghz CPU, 512 Geforce 8700m GT GDDR3 video card, and 250gb 72000RPM HD... VV Vinyl for $800 Alex Trebek, "Will this laptop work work with VV?" All jokes aside will this joint work or not and do you have a better recommendation.
I needed some back-up on this.... These beta guys need to get fired because I'm assuming that Virtual Dj went off of there opinions to ok the software. I can only speak for VV... and it totally sucks the big one on MAC. Everytime I close the program as stated in another forum I get stupid errors. Virtual Vinyl should get rebooted or some dumb @#$t at your earliest convenience to fix errors. I don't know nor do I care. I'm looking for a windows laptop now.... Hopefully, I luck up and pick the right one... LOL! Never had to do that when getting a computer or laptop for a game or something.... Usually the software programmers have a set standard for compatability for the product before it comes out... LOL! I guess you guys missed that one.... At this point, I'm very pissed. I used VV on my mac with the help of bootcamp with no problem. Hold on, except video... it seems my video card on my mac is only compatible with windows directx 10. Darn, I was almost in the clear. I even try to be delicate with the program like let it have time to know that a song has stopped and get a break between songs. Surprise... Mother @#$$% it still smacks me in the face like it's Rick James on crack. To be honest, I only bought Virtual Vinyl because it was cheaper than Serato and came with video. Come to find out Serato has video, but it's extra. I guess you just get what you pay for and there is no such thing as snagging a good deal anymore these days. You can say fix this... fix that... Which I have done? I'm pretty good with computers... Just cuz I dj doesn't mean I'm stupid. Right now, I wouldn't think about doing a gig with virtual vinyl unless it was Middle School students or if I could follow the yellow brick road and the VV wizard could give me the magic laptop. You guys are pathetic... I hope your motto isn't made by DJ's for DJ's! Now your probably going to say we have plenty of happy customers... Not... In the back of their DJ, Beatmatching brain they're I wonder if I chose a different program I would have had all these problems. Maybe we can just private message... Dennis Ferrer, Coldcut, or Carl Cox and they can tell us what it is they use... LOL! Problem fixed... right... They do live gigs all the time! I'm frustrated and have some change to spend... I know this is the mac forum, but what is the perfect laptop for this product... with no freezes, stupid errors, time code loss, sound card loss, did I miss anything? Seriously, you tell me what works correctly with this product and I will buy it. I want an alienware computer with 2.5 ghz CPU, 512 Geforce 8700m GT GDDR3 video card, and 250gb 72000RPM HD... VV Vinyl for $800 Alex Trebek, "Will this laptop work work with VV?" All jokes aside will this joint work or not and do you have a better recommendation.
Mensajes Wed 27 Aug 08 @ 9:05 pm
SBDJ
All the bitching in your post really isn't going to help your case I'm afraid, and calling us pathetic when you're the one having all the issues and throwing your toys out of the pram about it seems a little, well, ironic ;)
I'm sorry, but thats absolute rubbish. What video card does this mac have, and what problems did you have running under windows? You do realise that DX10 will only (legitimately) run on Vista, and that you can still install and use DX9 on Vista anyway? I'm using DX10 hardware in my gig machine ;)
Just to make a point, I use VirtualDJ on windows for lots of live gigs and I don't remember having a single crash that wasn't induced by me in a development environment. The software does work ;)
Oh, and if you want to go and use Serato Video, go right ahead - don't forget you'll be needing that Rane mixer too, and it's not exactly had an easy birth so far either.
CuzImJay wrote :
Hold on, except video... it seems my video card on my mac is only compatible with windows directx 10
I'm sorry, but thats absolute rubbish. What video card does this mac have, and what problems did you have running under windows? You do realise that DX10 will only (legitimately) run on Vista, and that you can still install and use DX9 on Vista anyway? I'm using DX10 hardware in my gig machine ;)
Just to make a point, I use VirtualDJ on windows for lots of live gigs and I don't remember having a single crash that wasn't induced by me in a development environment. The software does work ;)
Oh, and if you want to go and use Serato Video, go right ahead - don't forget you'll be needing that Rane mixer too, and it's not exactly had an easy birth so far either.
Mensajes Wed 27 Aug 08 @ 9:43 pm
cnd782
I have to say CuzImJay is right. I basically had the same problem with compatibilities with my Mac and Virtual Vinyl. I got so frusterated with the whole program that
I returned it and bought Serato. Sorry Atomix Productions... I live in the same state where Numark headquarters are and I talked to the tech guy there and he told me that he couldn't help me. I couldn't believe it. We tried numerous ways to solve my issue but to no prevail. He asked if I wanted to return it and get and a whole new program. I thought to my self, would I put my self through this again? No way...went else where. Another thing I couldn't believe is the VDJ dosen't even have telephone help. This site all forum based to help. Now that's great customer service right?? lol I'll tell you what, you guys developed a great VDJ program but I agree with CuzImJay on how do make such a powerful pgrogram and not be able to configure VDJ Mac Edition to be 100% glitch free?? Honestly, I use VDJ on my Mac too and it works but there are alot gltiches. How come it takes so long for the sound effects to come out for a Mac?? You guys comes out with these updates but for the most part the glitches from the previous versions are still there? I don't get it. Shouldn't it be fixed? I use Serato and it works the best I think. If your a beginner DJ, VDJ is a great stepping stool to learn the ropes. But after you master it, move on, please!
DJ Dep
I returned it and bought Serato. Sorry Atomix Productions... I live in the same state where Numark headquarters are and I talked to the tech guy there and he told me that he couldn't help me. I couldn't believe it. We tried numerous ways to solve my issue but to no prevail. He asked if I wanted to return it and get and a whole new program. I thought to my self, would I put my self through this again? No way...went else where. Another thing I couldn't believe is the VDJ dosen't even have telephone help. This site all forum based to help. Now that's great customer service right?? lol I'll tell you what, you guys developed a great VDJ program but I agree with CuzImJay on how do make such a powerful pgrogram and not be able to configure VDJ Mac Edition to be 100% glitch free?? Honestly, I use VDJ on my Mac too and it works but there are alot gltiches. How come it takes so long for the sound effects to come out for a Mac?? You guys comes out with these updates but for the most part the glitches from the previous versions are still there? I don't get it. Shouldn't it be fixed? I use Serato and it works the best I think. If your a beginner DJ, VDJ is a great stepping stool to learn the ropes. But after you master it, move on, please!
DJ Dep
Mensajes Thu 28 Aug 08 @ 9:39 pm
SBDJ
cnd782 wrote :
How come it takes so long for the sound effects to come out for a Mac?? You guys comes out with these updates but for the most part the glitches from the previous versions are still there? I don't get it. Shouldn't it be fixed? I use Serato and it works the best I think. If your a beginner DJ, VDJ is a great stepping stool to learn the ropes. But after you master it, move on, please!
That moving on comment makes me laugh.... I definately didn't learn the ropes on VDJ, but am more than happy using it. I have no plans to move on to Serato - especially since Serato can't fufill my requirements.
Anyway, for the plugins - you have to bear in mind that some plugins were not written by Atomix, and thus they don't have the source code to port them to the Mac platform.
If there is a specific plugin you wanted porting, I'd suggest either posting up in the plugins forum about it - or contacting the author.
Sound and device mapper plugins are generally very easy to port (unless using a custom GUI). Video plugins are not portable at all as they use OpenGL rather than DirectX.
Regards,
Scott
Mensajes Fri 29 Aug 08 @ 4:56 am
CuzImJay
SBDJ wrote :
I'm sorry, but thats absolute rubbish. What video card does this mac have, and what problems did you have running under windows? You do realise that DX10 will only (legitimately) run on Vista, and that you can still install and use DX9 on Vista anyway? I'm using DX10 hardware in my gig machine ;)
Oh, and if you want to go and use Serato Video, go right ahead - don't forget you'll be needing that Rane mixer too, and it's not exactly had an easy birth so far either.
Oh, and if you want to go and use Serato Video, go right ahead - don't forget you'll be needing that Rane mixer too, and it's not exactly had an easy birth so far either.
See... It's guys like you that piss me off even more. So you think I have nothing else to do, but get on the internet and bash a good product. That wasn't my intention! I just want these tech guys to realize that this program is not fully compatible with macs. As far as my rubbish goes, I don't lie. New macs... If you have one, LOL! Come with DX 10 graphic cards which only run perfectly with DX10... Sure it will work with DX9, but with green lines accross your video while in accelerated mode. Just in case you didn't know... Which I'm suspecting that you didn't! If you don't have an answer to a question or a gripe you can keep your post and save me the energy of reading your unusable information. Like I said software is meant to be versatile... Not to work with only a couple of computers! If it is that way... All I ask, is to right it on the product and save me the time of purchasing the software and having problems. Just imagine if your car had this many problems and you couldn't get to work. Well my DJ equipment is part of my job and I can't do what I want with what I paid for. Good for you yours works... Mines doesn't!
Mensajes Mon 01 Sep 08 @ 11:22 pm
SBDJ
CuzImJay wrote :
See... It's guys like you that piss me off even more.
Thanks. I'll be sure to help you out whenever I can now....
CuzImJay wrote :
So you think I have nothing else to do, but get on the internet and bash a good product. That wasn't my intention!
Then try to be more constructive, less opinionated and rude.
CuzImJay wrote :
I just want these tech guys to realize that this program is not fully compatible with macs. As far as my rubbish goes, I don't lie.
Virtual DJ works fine on Windows. There are some issues on the Mac plaform, and if you have found a problem by all means post it up. But drop the I know everything matter of fact attitude, and the ranting, and you might find assistance more forethcoming.
CuzImJay wrote :
New macs... If you have one, LOL!
I have access to a wide variety of hardware as part of my job, and I make use of that to develop a range of plugins for VirtualDJ.
CuzImJay wrote :
Come with DX 10 graphic cards which only run perfectly with DX10... Sure it will work with DX9, but with green lines accross your video while in accelerated mode. Just in case you didn't know... Which I'm suspecting that you didn't!
Again, you're wrong. I use my DX10 card with Virtual DJ doing video shows, multiple nights a week. It is running in hardware accelerated mode, using various effects and transitions - without any "green line" issues. The DX level of the card is of course irrelevant to the Mac version, since it uses the OpenGL API instead.
I also use a DX9 card without these issues.
Of course I wouldn't know any of this, I mean I just develop Virtual DJ video plugins for the community, what would I know...
CuzImJay wrote :
If you don't have an answer to a question or a gripe you can keep your post and save me the energy of reading your unusable information. Like I said software is meant to be versatile... Not to work with only a couple of computers!
I was trying to help, I would like to find the actual cause of your issues and help you resolve them. VirtualDJ works fine on the vast majority of correctly specified and configured computers. You were ranting about plugins not being available and the like - thats why I piped up. I moderate the plugins forum, and I develop a variety of plugins from video, to controller mapper, to interface features. I do this for free, in my own time. If this is the attitude of the people who use them, I may as well not bother...
CuzImJay wrote :
If it is that way... All I ask, is to right it on the product and save me the time of purchasing the software and having problems. Just imagine if your car had this many problems and you couldn't get to work.
Car analagys always suck! But if you must, the car vendor supplied all the hardware and software required. Question though - before purchasing this hardware, did you post up on the forum to find out if anyone else was using it, and what issues they had? So you bought your car without reading any reviews or a test drive right?
CuzImJay wrote :
Well my DJ equipment is part of my job and I can't do what I want with what I paid for. Good for you yours works... Mines doesn't!
I'm sorry to hear that, and like I said, I'm willing to help.
Mensajes Tue 02 Sep 08 @ 3:31 am
CuzImJay
Wrong guy... I don't care about plug-ins and your right virtual dj does work totally fine on windows. Maybe we had some miscommunication, but again your wrong. There are post... some are mine and other DJ's with a DX10 compatible graphics card "ATI Radeon HD 2600 Pro" that doesn't work in Windows XP. The reason being is because the graphics card was designed to be compatible with Windows Vista. Not that it matters, but I don't like being told I'm wrong when I know what I researched. I don't even want to use the Mac for DJ gigs it's an IMac I use for other audio projects. Just testing out virtual dj because I heard it was pretty good. Today, I noticed 5.2 is available for VV so I'm going to give it a try! Believe me... I was nice at first, but no one seems to know what fixes anything. In most of the post, it's always you don't have this or you need to change that. Now if you want to help... I need a laptop for DJing preferably with Windows XP or Vista... Doesn't really matter! Just want to be able to put this software to work. Thanks and I'm truly sorry if I pissed anyone off. Who knows maybe 5.2 fixed all the problems. We'll see
Mensajes Thu 04 Sep 08 @ 4:58 am
SBDJ
CuzImJay wrote :
Wrong guy... I don't care about plug-ins
Oh really, hang on....
CuzImJays Original Post wrote :
Software should say compatible with Mac with some errors and limited user plug-ins... LOL! You know you want to laugh deep down inside and partially pissed too. Forget the extra plug-ins that you don't get because you don't have windows... Make it run correctly on a Mac first.
Part of your original rant was about plugins ;)
CuzImJay wrote :
There are post... some are mine and other DJ's with a DX10 compatible graphics card "ATI Radeon HD 2600 Pro" that doesn't work in Windows XP. The reason being is because the graphics card was designed to be compatible with Windows Vista. Not that it matters, but I don't like being told I'm wrong when I know what I researched.
Finally some information from you - I've been asking about your hardware and you've been ignoring me, just stating it's a Mac - not whether its a Macbook, iMac or whatever. If you want assistance on this sort of thing, you have to post up your system specs! Anyway IMHO you are still wrong. As I stated, I myself use in my gig machine 2 nVidia DX10 video cards - yes designed for Vista DX10. They have one small niggle, but nothing major like you are describing, and in my case it's not to do with DX10. Your problem would appear to be related to your type of card, not a sweeping "All DX10" video cards. You obviously didn't research hard enough ;)
CuzImJay wrote :
Now if you want to help... I need a laptop for DJing preferably with Windows XP or Vista... Doesn't really matter! Just want to be able to put this software to work. Thanks and I'm truly sorry if I pissed anyone off. Who knows maybe 5.2 fixed all the problems. We'll see
There are a couple of laptop recommendation threads on the forum here, have a quick search and see if you can find something.
Regards,
Scott
Mensajes Thu 04 Sep 08 @ 8:13 am
lamont76
huh. after doing the database change and autolatency, everything with my macbookpro is ok...
i get the error for closing VV ONLY when i use command + Q to close it... otherwise it works flawlessly.... the VV card for me is plug and play perfect too...
i get the error for closing VV ONLY when i use command + Q to close it... otherwise it works flawlessly.... the VV card for me is plug and play perfect too...
Mensajes Thu 04 Sep 08 @ 6:14 pm
CuzImJay
Well it sounds like it might be the sound card getting replaced and maybe I won't get the errors. That is my gripe... I get errors and loose my time code signal. I'll try to get Numark to replace it.... They should everything I have for Digital Djing is there products. If this works thanks, but I'm going to be out of a soundcard. I've heard from others that the VV soundcard is a piece... Any suggestions?
I wasn't making it up... There are issues with the graphic cards for DX 10 operating in XP
RicardoM wrote :
Both will work great with Intel's chipset.
Anyway, If you going to go with HD series from ATI, you should use VISTA. If you go with XP, you will probably get the green stripes in video files when mixing with hardware aceleration. Thats because DX issues. The same for Geforce 8000 series.
Anyway, If you going to go with HD series from ATI, you should use VISTA. If you go with XP, you will probably get the green stripes in video files when mixing with hardware aceleration. Thats because DX issues. The same for Geforce 8000 series.
DJ Marcel_1 wrote :
I would only suggest that you make sure the video card drivers match your O/S directX.
XP = DirectX 9
Vista = Directx 10
There have been issues with people who have Directx 10 cards (I would be one) using them with XP.
XP = DirectX 9
Vista = Directx 10
There have been issues with people who have Directx 10 cards (I would be one) using them with XP.
I wasn't making it up... There are issues with the graphic cards for DX 10 operating in XP
Mensajes Thu 04 Sep 08 @ 11:23 pm
SBDJ
I'm not making it up either - for example I've used the GeForce 8800 (a DX10 card) under XP without issues, so the problem is not *all* DirectX 10 cards. It must be something more specific...
Mensajes Fri 05 Sep 08 @ 6:13 am
