DJCG22
i know that by lowering the gain the limiter will not kick in but on some music videos and mp3s i lower the gain to 0 and it still kicks in.. please can we get a option to turn it off ?
thanks guys :)
thanks guys :)
Mensajes Tue 20 Oct 15 @ 4:25 am
Adion
Did you try to re-analyze the files? Perhaps the auto-gain calculation was wrong on these files?
If not, would it be possible to share one of these files?
If you can hear the limiter kicking in at default gain something is likely not right, but if it continues to kick in when you lower the gain definitely something is wrong.
In that case an option to turn the limiter off would only make it worse, as you would get horrible distortion instead.
If not, would it be possible to share one of these files?
If you can hear the limiter kicking in at default gain something is likely not right, but if it continues to kick in when you lower the gain definitely something is wrong.
In that case an option to turn the limiter off would only make it worse, as you would get horrible distortion instead.
Mensajes Tue 20 Oct 15 @ 5:11 am
DJCG22
I will try this out, but coming from vdj7; I never had this issue with the sound. I'm very picky about sound quality so all my files are mp4 for video and 320 for audio mp3. I do understand that removing the limiter in some situations would be a bad idea... but there is a difference in having a limiter in the software as to say a actual PA sound system limiter.
Mensajes Tue 20 Oct 15 @ 5:35 am
PhantomDeejay
DJCG22 wrote :
but there is a difference in having a limiter in the software as to say a actual PA sound system limiter.
Then I guess you are familiar with the fact that they are used for 2 completely different things.
The software limiter is used to prevent your signal get too hot and distort on the digital domain, where the term "distortion" is an absolute "hard" limit. On the digital domain you simply can't have volume values greater than 0 db (which even with the trick of interpolation will not give you sound levels greater than +3 db)
Everything above 0db will produce distortion. And it's an absolute hard limit. Everything above 0db will cause your soundcard to distort it's signal. So, the software limiter is there to prevent your sound distort, thus it's there doing 2 things:
1) Remind you that you can't go on higher levels than you already are without damaging your sound quality
2) For low / light clipping: Trying to prevent/repair the damage you cause on your sound quality due to very hot signaling.
On the other hand, PA limiters are used in order to "protect" PA systems from blowing up the speakers (or much less common the amps) due to very hot signal and distortion caused by the inability of the speakers to handle it. PA limiters are not there to provide you a "good - clean sound" They are there to protect your system when you are overdoing it and the system would not be able to cope with the levels you try to produce out of it. They work on signal level as well (pre-amp) but usually when they are set up they take into account the amplified stage (post-amp). I mean, you set them up on the pre-amp stage but it's the post-amp stage that you mind not to distort and you try to prevent from going wrong. On the same setup different speakers or different amps would cause different settings on a PA limiter as it's the post-amp part that distorts and and you want to prevent from happening.
If you ever use a mixing board (you know, the kind of boards you connect mics and instruments for live performance, like MIDAS, Yamaha, Mackie, Soundcraft e.t.c.) you'll notice that it's very common to have a limiter per each channel of the board. They are there to prevent overaloading/distortion of each different channel prior going on the mixing sub of the board. They are there to prevent the sound from getting bad. They are not there to "protect" the PA system (monitros, FOH, e.t.c you name it)
VirtualDj 8 uses the same principal. It provides you the following limiters:
1) Per deck limiter. Each deck has it's own limiter so that it won't overload/distort due to high gain, wrong eq adjustment, or deck effects adding to much "extra" sound on the original (try to use 'Echo' with feedback close to 50% or even higher to understand what I mean)
2) Master limiter. The sum of all decks goes to a master limiter that prevents the "master" output (when your sound setup has one) from overloading due to many decks producing high levels, or due to master effects adding too much sound. Remember, that when one deck is playing very "close" to peak level, adding a second deck on the mix without lowering the first one will make the sum of master mix go above the peak, and that's just for 2 decks. Add a third deck on the mix, and ideally the 3 decks should play at 33% level in order to avoid going over peak.
Personally I advise users since day one VirtualDj 8 released to adjust their options so that they give their soundcards some headroom in order to be able to mix with greater freedom without worrying too much about the limiter as it will kick in very rarely.
Users which understand how audio signals work and have some technical knowledge about sound, usually understand what I mean and adjust their settings accordingly. Users who just refuse to understand how audio signals work don't.
Having a reasonable headroom is the way to go no matter if you mix with digital or traditional audio sources and mixers.
If you haven't setup your system to have some headroom please open VirtualDj options, click on "Show advanced options" box and search for "zerodb" setting. Choose a setting that suits your needs. You can try -3db for starters and if it's still too small go to -6db which is my personal favorite one.
PS: Don't take this post personally. I just provided some technical data and explanations here in order to help users that don't have the slightest idea what a limiter is actually doing to get a better picture of it. Thank you!
Mensajes Tue 20 Oct 15 @ 7:59 am
Tim Bennett
Seems most files are hotter than I prefer and many trigger the limiter. I guess its the way they are encoded. I usually run my audio files through mp3gain and all is well. Still sound great. I've never had much success using mp4 gain, so I make sure I've been through all my video files and set the gain before I ever spin them live.
Mensajes Tue 20 Oct 15 @ 2:25 pm
PhantomDeejay
TDBennett wrote :
Seems most files are hotter than I prefer and many trigger the limiter.
Change "zerodb" value then. Set it to have more headroom.
Mensajes Tue 20 Oct 15 @ 4:41 pm
groovindj
IMO the big problem with the VDJ 8 limiter is the negative way it affects the sound when it works.
This is why so many post complaints about the sound being "ruined". They can hear what's happening.
If the limiter was more "transparent" and didn't pump the audio so much, there would be far fewer (if any) complaints because people wouldn't hear such an obvious change in the sound. One free VST that gets mentioned often on the forum is LoudMax. This does a far better job of controlling the level without affecting the overall sound too much.
I really think the parameters of the VDJ 8 limiter should be adjusted to make it less obvious.
This is why so many post complaints about the sound being "ruined". They can hear what's happening.
If the limiter was more "transparent" and didn't pump the audio so much, there would be far fewer (if any) complaints because people wouldn't hear such an obvious change in the sound. One free VST that gets mentioned often on the forum is LoudMax. This does a far better job of controlling the level without affecting the overall sound too much.
I really think the parameters of the VDJ 8 limiter should be adjusted to make it less obvious.
Mensajes Tue 20 Oct 15 @ 4:41 pm
PhantomDeejay
Groovin, we have discussed this several times already. It's a brickwall limiter that kicks in ONLY when it HAS to.
LoudMax can be set as a compressor or even a "soft-knee" limiter. However this means it works even when it doesn't have to. For a soft-knee limiter to work it must engage in lower levels (threshold) and gradually reach the maximum compression ratio (infinity to one) within a certain dynamic range. The bigger the range is, the smoother the limiter is, but the lower the threshold is.
On the other hand, the smaller the range is, the harder the limiter will be and the higher the threshold is.
For a "nice-sounding" soft-knee limiter the threshold would have to be somewhere close the -6db area and surely no higher than the -3db mark.
This means that besides "ruining" (or at least altering) the dynamic range your songs, the limiter (visually) would activate in far lower levels causing all sort of confusion between users that don't know how a compressor/limiter works.
Even now that the limiter kicks in the highest possible threshold, most users complain just because they see it working, not because it's "ruining" the sound.
You know very well that when the limiter kicks in once in while here and there it's because it will kick in to compress a "peak" of the audio wave, which of course is almost unheard by most humans. You have to go much higher than a few db from the threshold, and much more often in order to actually hear the limiter working.
LoudMax can be set as a compressor or even a "soft-knee" limiter. However this means it works even when it doesn't have to. For a soft-knee limiter to work it must engage in lower levels (threshold) and gradually reach the maximum compression ratio (infinity to one) within a certain dynamic range. The bigger the range is, the smoother the limiter is, but the lower the threshold is.
On the other hand, the smaller the range is, the harder the limiter will be and the higher the threshold is.
For a "nice-sounding" soft-knee limiter the threshold would have to be somewhere close the -6db area and surely no higher than the -3db mark.
This means that besides "ruining" (or at least altering) the dynamic range your songs, the limiter (visually) would activate in far lower levels causing all sort of confusion between users that don't know how a compressor/limiter works.
Even now that the limiter kicks in the highest possible threshold, most users complain just because they see it working, not because it's "ruining" the sound.
You know very well that when the limiter kicks in once in while here and there it's because it will kick in to compress a "peak" of the audio wave, which of course is almost unheard by most humans. You have to go much higher than a few db from the threshold, and much more often in order to actually hear the limiter working.
Mensajes Tue 20 Oct 15 @ 4:56 pm
A Man and His Music
I would say that all the professionals here are picky about their music, so you are not unique, in that regard. What sets you apart is, you have zero gain, and the limiter kicks in? If your gain is zero, then there's no sound. Something else is going on here, or we are not getting the whole story.
Mensajes Tue 20 Oct 15 @ 10:29 pm
DJCG22
Thanks guys i changed the "zero db " value to -6db and gave some headroom that fixed my problem... also my last beta was not stable.. it would somehow lower and raise gains by itself at random points of 6 hour long video sets using a ns7fx. I found the latest beta build fixed this issue as well I'm not updating anytime soon.
Mensajes Tue 27 Oct 15 @ 6:31 am
Djratedxxx919
Also check out aacgain (mp3gain).
Mensajes Thu 29 Oct 15 @ 12:15 am
Adion
Both aacgain and mp3gain use the ReplayGain algorithm, which is very similar to the algorithm virtualdj uses, so as long as you have no need to play the files with normalized volume outside of vdj it is sufficient to have virtualdj autogain set to Auto.
Note that although aacgain and mp3gain are lossless and reversible, it is possible that the gain they apply causes some local clipping. The gain vdj applies will not cause clipping because it is either compressed by the limiter, or enough headroom was created by the zeroDb option.
If you do use mp3gain or aacgain, remember to re-scan these files within vdj. Otherwise the gain value that vdj remembered would be the value from before aacgain was run, causing gain to be applied twice.
Note that although aacgain and mp3gain are lossless and reversible, it is possible that the gain they apply causes some local clipping. The gain vdj applies will not cause clipping because it is either compressed by the limiter, or enough headroom was created by the zeroDb option.
If you do use mp3gain or aacgain, remember to re-scan these files within vdj. Otherwise the gain value that vdj remembered would be the value from before aacgain was run, causing gain to be applied twice.
Mensajes Thu 29 Oct 15 @ 12:04 pm
DJCG22
Thanks for the tip, lowering the 'zero db' really did it for me no more clipping at with my tracks :) I'm currently at '-3' setting and its working great.
Mensajes Fri 06 Nov 15 @ 3:43 am
DJ Andrew Ryan
DJCG22 wrote :
Thanks for the tip, lowering the 'zero db' really did it for me no more clipping at with my tracks :) I'm currently at '-3' setting and its working great.
Is that all you changed? Coming from serato I've noticed a muddied sound as well
Mensajes Mon 07 Dec 15 @ 6:52 am
A Man and His Music
Are you saying that you tried the same thing, and it did not work for you? Are your issues exactly the same?
Mensajes Mon 07 Dec 15 @ 8:14 pm
picudodj
Coming from serato I have met lots of djs switching back to vdj8 because serato is not as good as vdj on videos and vdj can play more video formats than serato so that is a big A + for vdj also just set -5on db and use more gain from your amps or external mixer = never hitting the limiter
Mensajes Tue 08 Dec 15 @ 1:58 am
derwoodski
Quote :
Personally I advise users since day one VirtualDj 8 released to adjust their options so that they give their soundcards some headroom in order to be able to mix with greater freedom without worrying too much about the limiter as it will kick in very rarely.
Users which understand how audio signals work and have some technical knowledge about sound, usually understand what I mean and adjust their settings accordingly. Users who just refuse to understand how audio signals work don't.
Having a reasonable headroom is the way to go no matter if you mix with digital or traditional audio sources and mixers.
If you haven't setup your system to have some headroom please open VirtualDj options, click on "Show advanced options" box and search for "zerodb" setting. Choose a setting that suits your needs. You can try -3db for starters and if it's still too small go to -6db which is my personal favorite one.
PS: Don't take this post personally. I just provided some technical data and explanations here in order to help users that don't have the slightest idea what a limiter is actually doing to get a better picture of it. Thank you!
Users which understand how audio signals work and have some technical knowledge about sound, usually understand what I mean and adjust their settings accordingly. Users who just refuse to understand how audio signals work don't.
Having a reasonable headroom is the way to go no matter if you mix with digital or traditional audio sources and mixers.
If you haven't setup your system to have some headroom please open VirtualDj options, click on "Show advanced options" box and search for "zerodb" setting. Choose a setting that suits your needs. You can try -3db for starters and if it's still too small go to -6db which is my personal favorite one.
PS: Don't take this post personally. I just provided some technical data and explanations here in order to help users that don't have the slightest idea what a limiter is actually doing to get a better picture of it. Thank you!
Thanks for this tidbit, I was having gain issues and tried MP3gain, and felt like it was stripping a lot of the dynamic range out of the tracks. Adjusting the zeroDB setting to -3db was enough to keep most tracks out of the limiter, which in my mobile rig, sounded like Ass. I never noticed at my residency gig because different amps PA etc. speaker placement. I felt like I was having to ride the gain knob on my mobile rig and the autogain wasn't keeping up. -3db did the trick and kept the dynamics of the tracks intact while keeping them from hitting the limiter.
Mensajes Mon 04 Jan 16 @ 4:52 pm
Djratedxxx919
MP3GAIN..,,,,MP3GAIN.....set to 89, if you wanna go further ClassonEdwards BREAKAWAY DJ(only if you're using a controller).
Mensajes Tue 05 Jan 16 @ 12:27 am
prasanf
In options setbauto gain to "remember". So you only have to do the below procedure once for each track.
When you load a track go to the places in the track that are likely to be the loudest. Look at the VU meter on that channel. If it is hitting the top and you see "limiter" kicking in on top of the skin, simply reduce the gain. 0db might still be too high so you need to have the track on negative db. There is nothing wrong with doing that.
Sometimes however, the vdj vu meter is wrong, or the track may just be bad. Those are the times when you need to use your ears and adjust the lows, mids and highs until it sounds right.
When you load a track go to the places in the track that are likely to be the loudest. Look at the VU meter on that channel. If it is hitting the top and you see "limiter" kicking in on top of the skin, simply reduce the gain. 0db might still be too high so you need to have the track on negative db. There is nothing wrong with doing that.
Sometimes however, the vdj vu meter is wrong, or the track may just be bad. Those are the times when you need to use your ears and adjust the lows, mids and highs until it sounds right.
Mensajes Tue 05 Jan 16 @ 5:14 am
blckjck
prasanf wrote :
In options setbauto gain to "remember". So you only have to do the below procedure once for each track.
That seems like a lot of work that's not needed.
If you start off bringing the ZeroDB down to -3 or so, then you would only have to adjust an occasional track.
Mensajes Tue 05 Jan 16 @ 7:03 am
