blckjck
As far as hard limiting vs soft limiting. I appreciate the hard limiter. I feel that if a soft compressor was used, people wouldn't notice it as much. Now, while to some that sounds great, they don't want to hear it. However, when you start driving it into compression, you also lose the songs dynamic range on an already studio compressed track. If people are running their system hard or at it's capacity to begin with, the speakers loose the much needed cooling time between high peaks. Things overheat or wear out faster because people don't hear the difference and fail to turn it down.
Not having the limiter and sending signals that are digitally clipped is even worse. Please leave on the protection.
Not having the limiter and sending signals that are digitally clipped is even worse. Please leave on the protection.
Mensajes Wed 06 Jan 16 @ 11:16 am
TVD UK
I have set mine to -3db and all apart from older tracks now stay well out of the limiter, i may go to -6db as that will solve the older tracks.
Mensajes Wed 06 Jan 16 @ 11:34 am
derwoodski
This has become quite a lively discussion. Point taken, I removed the Booth from my sound config, didn't make a difference, the booth outs still function without an explicit designation in the sound setup. The ZeroDb adjustment was the ticket for me, There is still the odd track that dances on the limiter, but I can deal, overall sound quality is up to my standards. Sadly I don't have any upcoming mobile gigs where I can test it on that rig, but that can and often does change in a hurry. Thanks for all your feedback :)
Mensajes Wed 06 Jan 16 @ 2:14 pm
Hardykofi
yeah i would prefer the limiter having on and off button , i can't even mix two tracks at the same time.
every time i try to mix the limiter goes on read and i get bad sounds.
really , why should this happen and why is it so hard to have a button as on and off for the limiter.
not everyone wants that and we paid for the software.
it should be a software that can satify everyone
every time i try to mix the limiter goes on read and i get bad sounds.
really , why should this happen and why is it so hard to have a button as on and off for the limiter.
not everyone wants that and we paid for the software.
it should be a software that can satify everyone
Mensajes Thu 07 Jan 16 @ 8:44 am
PachN
Mensajes Thu 07 Jan 16 @ 9:34 am
blckjck
semaha wrote :
yeah i would prefer the limiter having on and off button , i can't even mix two tracks at the same time.
every time i try to mix the limiter goes on read and i get bad sounds.
really , why should this happen and why is it so hard to have a button as on and off for the limiter.
not everyone wants that and we paid for the software.
it should be a software that can satify everyone
every time i try to mix the limiter goes on read and i get bad sounds.
really , why should this happen and why is it so hard to have a button as on and off for the limiter.
not everyone wants that and we paid for the software.
it should be a software that can satify everyone
Have you read through this thread? Have you tried adjusting your ZeroDB to -3 or lower?
Mensajes Thu 07 Jan 16 @ 12:44 pm
locoDog
semaha wrote :
yeah i would prefer the limiter having on and off button , i can't even mix two tracks at the same time.
every time i try to mix the limiter goes on read and i get bad sounds.
really , why should this happen.
every time i try to mix the limiter goes on read and i get bad sounds.
really , why should this happen.
You are overdriving the levels, and not paying enough attention to eq & gate.
Dropping the auto gain to -3dB is the easy solution, the more intensive solution is leave auto gain @ unity or just under (i like -1) and constantly monitor and adjust the upfaders and the eq.
Being consistently in & out of the limiter sounds garbage, but believe me without the limiter you'd sound garbage a lot worse.
There really is no more to say on the matter.
Mensajes Thu 07 Jan 16 @ 2:34 pm
djmrmc
Reading the various posts on this subject I struggle to see why it's still a problem for some people.
I play week in week out at my club residency and have ZERO problems with the limiter ever kicking in. Like has been suggested numerous times change the zerodb setting to -3 or -6. Simple. That's what I did in when v8 came out and it's not a problem for me.
I play week in week out at my club residency and have ZERO problems with the limiter ever kicking in. Like has been suggested numerous times change the zerodb setting to -3 or -6. Simple. That's what I did in when v8 came out and it's not a problem for me.
Mensajes Thu 07 Jan 16 @ 5:48 pm
kradcliffe
The ZeroDB settings only work if you use the autogain within VDJ.
For those of us who don't (I use MP3Gain at 94Db) it's still an issue.
For those of us who don't (I use MP3Gain at 94Db) it's still an issue.
Mensajes Thu 07 Jan 16 @ 6:08 pm
blckjck
kradcliffe wrote :
The ZeroDB settings only work if you use the autogain within VDJ.
For those of us who don't (I use MP3Gain at 94Db) it's still an issue.
For those of us who don't (I use MP3Gain at 94Db) it's still an issue.
If you turn on the autogain and set the zerodb, is your sound quality affected?
Would that remove the issue of the limiter for you?
Mensajes Thu 07 Jan 16 @ 6:11 pm
kradcliffe
So what's the point of having the option to disable autogain.
If VDJ was reprogrammed to lower the output by -3db across the board then it would solve these issues across the board?
If VDJ was reprogrammed to lower the output by -3db across the board then it would solve these issues across the board?
Mensajes Thu 07 Jan 16 @ 6:42 pm
locoDog
No krad, enforcing a lowered dB would make it easier for most but it would hinder the more informed user,
Let's not walk at the slowest pace.
As I said I lower to -1 and ride the eq & gate. -1 gives just enough room for most fx and I script a gain drop for additive fx.
While analogue distortion works in brief bursts, digital doesn't.
honestly constant 'red riders' deserve a corrective slap, if you run a rig compression is a must unless you really like reconing cabs.
Maybe there is a case to have the option to bypass the limiter, and when the complaints of it sounding shit roll in, then the reply is 'maybe you can beatmatch & tune select, but until you know level balancing, You're not still not doing it right'
Hell that argument stands now, but too many are ready to blame anyone else but themselves.
Let's not walk at the slowest pace.
As I said I lower to -1 and ride the eq & gate. -1 gives just enough room for most fx and I script a gain drop for additive fx.
While analogue distortion works in brief bursts, digital doesn't.
honestly constant 'red riders' deserve a corrective slap, if you run a rig compression is a must unless you really like reconing cabs.
Maybe there is a case to have the option to bypass the limiter, and when the complaints of it sounding shit roll in, then the reply is 'maybe you can beatmatch & tune select, but until you know level balancing, You're not still not doing it right'
Hell that argument stands now, but too many are ready to blame anyone else but themselves.
Mensajes Thu 07 Jan 16 @ 10:33 pm
kradcliffe
I'm using the DDJ-SX2 with the channel gain set between 10 to and Zero, but the channel limiter still kicks in on occasion. My tracks are set to 94db so that can't be right. My master output is set at 33% so the issue is on an individual track rather than the master output.
Mensajes Fri 08 Jan 16 @ 4:31 am
PhantomDeejay
No matter what you use to adjust the gain of your tracks, you need to remember that you don't normalize them, you level them, which means you set an R.M.S. target volume to make them sound the same.
R.M.S. stands for Root Mean Square. It's a mathematical term for what you would call the "average" value.
However this means that even if you set your RMS target at 60db a peak can reach 120db or even 300db
Imagine 2 tracks:
5,5,5,5,500-> RMS is 104
120,80,70,130,120-> RMS is 104 as well
First track has a peak of 500 and second one of 130. They still have the same RMS.
Now, let's take 2 other tracks.
First track has 50.000 samples with 40db volume and 500 samples with 60db
The second one has 50.000 samples with 40db volume and 500 samples with 80db
The RMS of first track would be 40.198db
The RMS of the second track would be 40.396db
You see that their difference (in RMS) is only 0.198db
Yet the peaks of the second track are 20db higher!
If your "limit" is 70db the first track has some headroom and will never "clip", while the second one will "clip" on 500 samples.
I tried to explain this as simple as I can given the fact that English is not my mother tongue. However db's, levels and gain's are not just "numbers" ;)
R.M.S. stands for Root Mean Square. It's a mathematical term for what you would call the "average" value.
However this means that even if you set your RMS target at 60db a peak can reach 120db or even 300db
Imagine 2 tracks:
5,5,5,5,500-> RMS is 104
120,80,70,130,120-> RMS is 104 as well
First track has a peak of 500 and second one of 130. They still have the same RMS.
Now, let's take 2 other tracks.
First track has 50.000 samples with 40db volume and 500 samples with 60db
The second one has 50.000 samples with 40db volume and 500 samples with 80db
The RMS of first track would be 40.198db
The RMS of the second track would be 40.396db
You see that their difference (in RMS) is only 0.198db
Yet the peaks of the second track are 20db higher!
If your "limit" is 70db the first track has some headroom and will never "clip", while the second one will "clip" on 500 samples.
I tried to explain this as simple as I can given the fact that English is not my mother tongue. However db's, levels and gain's are not just "numbers" ;)
Mensajes Fri 08 Jan 16 @ 11:41 am
PhantomDeejay
BTW:
On the last exampe, if you want to avoid "clipping" you need to lower all samples by 10 db (at least)
This means that it's RMS value will drop 10db as well!
That's the main difference beween normalizing and leveling. Normalizing a track will never produce "clipping" as it takes into account only the higher peaks.
Leveling can (and often will) cause "clipping" because it looks on the average value.
On the last exampe, if you want to avoid "clipping" you need to lower all samples by 10 db (at least)
This means that it's RMS value will drop 10db as well!
That's the main difference beween normalizing and leveling. Normalizing a track will never produce "clipping" as it takes into account only the higher peaks.
Leveling can (and often will) cause "clipping" because it looks on the average value.
Mensajes Fri 08 Jan 16 @ 11:47 am
the SOUND INSURGENT
So programs like MP3GAIN really shouldn't be used??
Mensajes Fri 08 Jan 16 @ 3:27 pm
blckjck
I don't see much difference at all with the VDJ analyzer and MP3Gain on is't default values. From what I have read, the clipping option in MP3Gain changes the dynamics of the song by normalizing it. I don't see why there is a need to take the extra steps running the tracks through that software. VDJ, Tracktor, and even ITunes can adjust the gain on the track to a mean level to the other tracks.
Mensajes Fri 08 Jan 16 @ 7:35 pm
kradcliffe
It's handy when you play the tracks outwith VDJ, for example on portable devices.
I tried playing around today but couldn't get to grips with how the Autogain and ZeroDB settings change the position of the gain knobs on the controller and show ghost markings. Maybe what happens needs to be explained a bit better.
I tried playing around today but couldn't get to grips with how the Autogain and ZeroDB settings change the position of the gain knobs on the controller and show ghost markings. Maybe what happens needs to be explained a bit better.
Mensajes Fri 08 Jan 16 @ 7:39 pm
A Man and His Music
beatbreaker1 wrote :
So programs like MP3GAIN really shouldn't be used??
You can use them, but like most of the stuff out there, it's not needed. It's like late night TV commercials, the stuff has some merit, but who has that much scum in their bathroom? I look at what you do, and I'm impressed. You are more than qualified, so I am surprised that you have this issue. But, let's not get too lovey dovey here. This issue is so simple I'm amassed it is still going on. This is nothing new, and DJs have been dealing with this since the beginning of time. It has been explained over and over and over and over again. Why are there thousands of DJs playing, that don't have this issue? No one plays louder than I do, and I don't have a problem with the limiter in this software, because I know how to adjust everything in the chain. Do I occasionally hit the red, of course I do. The key is occasionally, meaning momentary peak. These momentary peaks are natural and tolerated by everything in the chain. If you hear the difference, than you are overdriving something in that chain. I may have to adjust the input once or twice a night, up or down, and then put it right back to 12 o'clock on my Denon MC6000, a few times more on the RMX2, but I can see it on the software or the controllers, before the mix. I am a blender so both decks are playing almost at full for awhile, and I do not have this issue.
Mensajes Fri 08 Jan 16 @ 7:45 pm
wickedmix
@kradcliffe
maybe this helps
when you have autogain on auto .... VDJ sets the average RMS of the track to what ever the zeroDB is set to
examples
if zerodb is at 0 then the average RMS of the track will be 0db and the peaks will probably go into the limiter some depending on the track
if zerodb is at -3 then the average RMS of the track will be -3db respectively and the peaks will most likely hit 0db+ once in a while
so the higher the zerodb setting the more headroom you will get above the average RMS of the track
as for the ghosting of the knobs that just shows you where the auto has adjusted the track to and if you want to make a change you will need to move the knob to that position before it will become active and adjust the gain.
maybe this helps
when you have autogain on auto .... VDJ sets the average RMS of the track to what ever the zeroDB is set to
examples
if zerodb is at 0 then the average RMS of the track will be 0db and the peaks will probably go into the limiter some depending on the track
if zerodb is at -3 then the average RMS of the track will be -3db respectively and the peaks will most likely hit 0db+ once in a while
so the higher the zerodb setting the more headroom you will get above the average RMS of the track
as for the ghosting of the knobs that just shows you where the auto has adjusted the track to and if you want to make a change you will need to move the knob to that position before it will become active and adjust the gain.
Mensajes Fri 08 Jan 16 @ 8:11 pm
