Dj Xeo
no bpm counter will get 100 songs out of 100 bang on that is a given but its a fact that the VDJ beat mapper isnt the best in the world. although im sure everyone here checks to make sure that the songs blend well in the monitors first anyway sometimes you have that gut feeling about a song and throw it on at the last second and that is why VDJ is so amazing you can literaly type in a part of the song title and it will find it almost instantly instead of rooting throught boxes and boxes of cds or disks or whatever you used before. its just a pitty when this happens that VDJ has ballsed up the bpm and then matched that incorrect bpm to your playing track and it goes out sounding like a chipmunk or a 200ft tall giant.
The foot is the most acurate bpm finding tool and that is why i think it should be possible to input into vdj a tap to inform its misguided BPM dettection engine what the actual BPM of that part of the song is. VDJ could use the tap to highlight what the actual beats aer instead of messing it right up. The way of using anchors and beat tapping a small section of song to get the global bpm is not good as it ether takes too long or is not acurate enough to actualy get the ebats (although beat tap is fine if you only need to use a BPM not phase aware effect etc)
oh and i have no idea how simple the music you play is because even my simpler 4 2 the floor songs vdj gets wrong somehow on 'techno and dance' or whatever its called. use the code from somewhere else if its better (and it is)
oh and where is key info, better time stretching, CBG16
The foot is the most acurate bpm finding tool and that is why i think it should be possible to input into vdj a tap to inform its misguided BPM dettection engine what the actual BPM of that part of the song is. VDJ could use the tap to highlight what the actual beats aer instead of messing it right up. The way of using anchors and beat tapping a small section of song to get the global bpm is not good as it ether takes too long or is not acurate enough to actualy get the ebats (although beat tap is fine if you only need to use a BPM not phase aware effect etc)
oh and i have no idea how simple the music you play is because even my simpler 4 2 the floor songs vdj gets wrong somehow on 'techno and dance' or whatever its called. use the code from somewhere else if its better (and it is)
oh and where is key info, better time stretching, CBG16
Mensajes Thu 15 Sep 05 @ 3:58 am
acw_dj
The BPMs don't measure music, that the real problem. The BPMs measure BEATS. So you could have a program that give 100% reliable BPM for 100% of the songs (even 90%). All we can get is for song that have beats in 4/4 compass.
Mensajes Thu 15 Sep 05 @ 7:08 am
anewsome
I guess my main point in starting this thread is that clearly there are better BPM detection engines out there than the one built into VDJ. If there is a way to work that better technology into VDJ, then why I wouldn't see why they wouldn't pursue it. Especially something like Autobpm 1.1, where it is a free program and clearly works better than the VDJ beat counter. I am sure that Atomix could license the Autobpm 1.1 technology and incorporate it into VDJ. In fact, I wish they would.
Mensajes Thu 15 Sep 05 @ 7:58 am
DJRogerBorges
Anyway it's just a matter of time until the technology catches up and we have a 100% perfect BPM counter. In the past I was happy with Pioneer's mixers BPM counter, and now we are not happy with VDJ's one, can you imagine? Me, I really like VDJ's bpm counter since I play mostly house music. It then has a VERY HIGH effectiveness.
I suppose that one way to solve this (hey, an improvement suggestion, devteam!) is to be able to RIGHT CLICK on a song, and be able to tell the computer what particular genre that song is; we should have more options, i.e. TECHNO > HIP HOP > SALSA > BEATLESS or something like that. We already have two options (techno / any music), perhaps should we have more? it seems that different music styles need different BPM analysing algorythms. (well in the future maybe computers will be able to detect that too.)
Another issue is that some songs change its speed during execution.... I'm not sure how VDJ handles this (tempo changes). Can we beatmatch a song that starts with 100bpm and finish with 120? It seems that VDJ "chooses" the tempo that is mostly played throughout the song.
I suppose that one way to solve this (hey, an improvement suggestion, devteam!) is to be able to RIGHT CLICK on a song, and be able to tell the computer what particular genre that song is; we should have more options, i.e. TECHNO > HIP HOP > SALSA > BEATLESS or something like that. We already have two options (techno / any music), perhaps should we have more? it seems that different music styles need different BPM analysing algorythms. (well in the future maybe computers will be able to detect that too.)
Another issue is that some songs change its speed during execution.... I'm not sure how VDJ handles this (tempo changes). Can we beatmatch a song that starts with 100bpm and finish with 120? It seems that VDJ "chooses" the tempo that is mostly played throughout the song.
Mensajes Thu 15 Sep 05 @ 11:40 am
bagpuss
I would also like a "local" bpm counter as well as the "fixed" one of VDJ, a bpm that is ever changing throughout the song as and when needed.
I think this was the case in Atomixmp3.
I think this was the case in Atomixmp3.
Mensajes Thu 15 Sep 05 @ 2:29 pm
Dj Xeo
thats because atomix wasnt that advancedand had more simple bpm detection. since VDJ uses mapping (mapping that assumes the song is perfectly equal throughout) it will only ever find one bpm (the bpm that fits the most beats). heres the solution....
Does anyone fancy porting the autobpm code into a dll plugin for one of the effects slots lol?
Does anyone fancy porting the autobpm code into a dll plugin for one of the effects slots lol?
Mensajes Sat 17 Sep 05 @ 3:25 am
bagpuss
Yes, a fixed BPM display that appears in the playlist, but also a local BPM that actively calculates the current speed, I think this would be most useful..
Mensajes Sat 17 Sep 05 @ 3:31 am
DJ PHIL IT
i don't know if any one of you got BPM PRO it is very good also about 99.% right,the best thing for VDJ to do is in the next update make the soft/w use mixeister own it's free so guys can go on mixeister web site and get it install it into VDJ.up today i had a problem with vdj put some songs in there i knew many of the songs were wrong put them in mixeister they were all right.maybe vdj should say our soft/w is only for techno and dance,lol Hip-Hop, R&B, Reggae and so on are not welcome ?,anyway i hope they spend some more time on sound Qul,
Mensajes Sat 17 Sep 05 @ 5:16 am
bogart
I thought that there was a problem using Mixmeister in conjunction with VDJ.
Mensajes Sat 17 Sep 05 @ 2:28 pm
discotronic
i dont know what problem you all have???
i got right bpm on 90%of my songs and the rest is not mixable at all because timing is changing to much in the song.
i have about 20.000 songs on my working disk!!!
it`s important how you scan them.
i got right bpm on 90%of my songs and the rest is not mixable at all because timing is changing to much in the song.
i have about 20.000 songs on my working disk!!!
it`s important how you scan them.
Mensajes Sat 17 Sep 05 @ 7:08 pm
djbambi
Same here.
The first versions of VDJ had a less-than-perfect BPM counter, requiring a bit of manual work to find out the correct BPM (a couple of "set anchors" spaced by as many beats as possible).
Then, the "Techno/House" + "Any Music" algorithm came out, and if one setting doesn't find the correct BPM, the other will, provided you are analyzing an electronic beat and your tracks have been mp3'ed correctly (i.e. not from a turntable with a belt drive). I too, like discotronic, experience a correct BPM analyze at least 90% of the time, and when I don't, there's really nothing any algorithm could do about it since it's because the tempo varies on the track. Note: my music is mostly electronic, from downtempo acid-jazz to drum'n'bass via detroit techno and chicago house. It's all sampled by myself from vinyl, with a nice-torque direct-drive turntable that maintains a very constant speed.
IMHO, one weakness of the VDJ Analyze is the placement of the CBG grid. Even though it gets the BPM correct, it won't place the fat square at the beginning of the measure unless it's a simple four-on-the-floor beat.
I think if you can identify some tracks that are constant-tempo and VDJ cannot analyze them correctly (even though you can do it manually), the dev team would probably be pretty interested in knowing about them to fine tune their algorithm., and maybe you can let them know through e-service.
The first versions of VDJ had a less-than-perfect BPM counter, requiring a bit of manual work to find out the correct BPM (a couple of "set anchors" spaced by as many beats as possible).
Then, the "Techno/House" + "Any Music" algorithm came out, and if one setting doesn't find the correct BPM, the other will, provided you are analyzing an electronic beat and your tracks have been mp3'ed correctly (i.e. not from a turntable with a belt drive). I too, like discotronic, experience a correct BPM analyze at least 90% of the time, and when I don't, there's really nothing any algorithm could do about it since it's because the tempo varies on the track. Note: my music is mostly electronic, from downtempo acid-jazz to drum'n'bass via detroit techno and chicago house. It's all sampled by myself from vinyl, with a nice-torque direct-drive turntable that maintains a very constant speed.
IMHO, one weakness of the VDJ Analyze is the placement of the CBG grid. Even though it gets the BPM correct, it won't place the fat square at the beginning of the measure unless it's a simple four-on-the-floor beat.
I think if you can identify some tracks that are constant-tempo and VDJ cannot analyze them correctly (even though you can do it manually), the dev team would probably be pretty interested in knowing about them to fine tune their algorithm., and maybe you can let them know through e-service.
Mensajes Sat 17 Sep 05 @ 8:45 pm
mp3jrick
The CBG grid is a easy to change with a keyboard shortcut, I use G and H for left and right shift.
It is located in DJ Norways blog I think.
The constant tempo as in beats or a track that actually changes in tempo?
The only to really properly calculate bpm is to base it on a 32 beat count imo.
As I posted, the "carried" or "skipped" beats of some songs fools the program.
The CBG placement usually is off because the program is reading the snare and not the bass.
I agree it is a pain, I have made it part of my cycle from rip to play.
It IS quite a process.
Even MM is off now and then.
It is located in DJ Norways blog I think.
The constant tempo as in beats or a track that actually changes in tempo?
The only to really properly calculate bpm is to base it on a 32 beat count imo.
As I posted, the "carried" or "skipped" beats of some songs fools the program.
The CBG placement usually is off because the program is reading the snare and not the bass.
I agree it is a pain, I have made it part of my cycle from rip to play.
It IS quite a process.
Even MM is off now and then.
Mensajes Sat 17 Sep 05 @ 9:36 pm
djbambi
> "The CBG grid is a easy to change with a keyboard shortcut"
yeah, I had mapped the left and right arrows of my xp10s to move the CBGs (with shift1 and shift2 for bigger increments), and now I often use the cbg buttons of the mixstation skin. it's a pain but it is not that big of a deal.
> "The constant tempo as in beats or a track that actually changes in tempo?"
there are some tracks that have a little break at a totally different tempo than the rest of the track, or even temporarily stop following a 4/4 structure, you see that a lot with experimental hiphop. so for a while your CBGs have nothing to do with the waveform. that has to be hard to analyze, it's a pretty cognitive concept
then there are tracks with a human drummer, where the tempo will never be completely constant
then there are tracks ripped from a turntable where the rotation speed of the platter is not constant, leading to slight tempo variations over the course of the track
VDJ used to have the "elastic" feature or something like that back then to deal with those scenarios, but it was not great, it was not used by us (they did a survey here everybody said drop it), and it was probably too costly to maintain or fix...
really, I doubt that there are miracle solutions for this subject. however things can be improved (like implementing apopsis suggestion), things can be done ergonomically to simplify the bpm/cbg process(like implementing vdj action for all the bpm window function: it would be great to be able to set anchor 1, set anchor 2, set anchor distance directly on the skin instead of having to open the "adjust bpm values" window. even maybe the little cbg slider would be cool.). just ideas...
yeah, I had mapped the left and right arrows of my xp10s to move the CBGs (with shift1 and shift2 for bigger increments), and now I often use the cbg buttons of the mixstation skin. it's a pain but it is not that big of a deal.
> "The constant tempo as in beats or a track that actually changes in tempo?"
there are some tracks that have a little break at a totally different tempo than the rest of the track, or even temporarily stop following a 4/4 structure, you see that a lot with experimental hiphop. so for a while your CBGs have nothing to do with the waveform. that has to be hard to analyze, it's a pretty cognitive concept
then there are tracks with a human drummer, where the tempo will never be completely constant
then there are tracks ripped from a turntable where the rotation speed of the platter is not constant, leading to slight tempo variations over the course of the track
VDJ used to have the "elastic" feature or something like that back then to deal with those scenarios, but it was not great, it was not used by us (they did a survey here everybody said drop it), and it was probably too costly to maintain or fix...
really, I doubt that there are miracle solutions for this subject. however things can be improved (like implementing apopsis suggestion), things can be done ergonomically to simplify the bpm/cbg process(like implementing vdj action for all the bpm window function: it would be great to be able to set anchor 1, set anchor 2, set anchor distance directly on the skin instead of having to open the "adjust bpm values" window. even maybe the little cbg slider would be cool.). just ideas...
Mensajes Sat 17 Sep 05 @ 11:27 pm
acw_dj
The first thing I do when I want to do smooth mixes was measure the music I played. After weeks investigating the correct way I realize BPM are the wrong way to measure music (I'm surprise since 1980 nobody can do something to finally correct this). I find an alternate way that matches EVERY music 100% accurate. The manual implementation isn't 100% accurate, but let you correct it by the pitch. With ± 1.2 % in pitch only (very often) so it works.
I want to do a proper documentation before sharing this, and hope really be useful for all.
I want to do a proper documentation before sharing this, and hope really be useful for all.
Mensajes Sun 18 Sep 05 @ 1:08 am
anewsome
I think the manual tap feature should have a mode where you "help" VDJ's BPM analyzer "find" the beat. Then it can use that information to accurately find the repetitions on the sound file and more accurately set the BPM. The current manual tap function only counts beats as a literal function of tapping the key.
I'm very interested in acw_dj's revolutionary way to match tempo without counting bpm.
I'm very interested in acw_dj's revolutionary way to match tempo without counting bpm.
Mensajes Mon 19 Sep 05 @ 5:58 pm
djbambi
anewsome, I love that suggestion! pls add it to new feature forum (cross-ref this post too)
Mensajes Mon 19 Sep 05 @ 6:04 pm
acw_dj
Anewsome it's a very good idea. It would help to find the correct bpm.
Mensajes Mon 19 Sep 05 @ 8:29 pm
mp3jrick
That's exactly how the Edirol V4 works, live correction with a tap button right on the mixer.
A keyboard shortcut would work excellent.
Good suggestion.
A keyboard shortcut would work excellent.
Good suggestion.
Mensajes Mon 19 Sep 05 @ 8:34 pm
anewsome
From what I read, this is the way that Autobpm 1.1 works too. Since you guys are all raving about how well it works. I couldn't get it to do anything though, since I didn't have a "Wave Mapper Device" or something it was looking for.
Apparently Autobpm using your selection to help it find the beat and do very accurate bpm counting. This is why I think you guys all agree it is the best bpm counter.
Lets take that a step further, use tap to help VDJ find the beat and have a bpm counter that's even better than Autobpm without needing to ripoff any code or reverse engineer anything.
Apparently Autobpm using your selection to help it find the beat and do very accurate bpm counting. This is why I think you guys all agree it is the best bpm counter.
Lets take that a step further, use tap to help VDJ find the beat and have a bpm counter that's even better than Autobpm without needing to ripoff any code or reverse engineer anything.
Mensajes Mon 19 Sep 05 @ 9:18 pm
Dj Xeo
lol nice idea anewsome, ive only been saying the exact same thingfor ages but no one has ever said, thats a great idea! or anything lol
this way of finding BPM along with a working elastic bpm method would be amazing. Can you imagine diving into Bohemian Rhapsody live cutting it into the mix and without having to make a thousand cue points lol.
this way of finding BPM along with a working elastic bpm method would be amazing. Can you imagine diving into Bohemian Rhapsody live cutting it into the mix and without having to make a thousand cue points lol.
Mensajes Wed 21 Sep 05 @ 2:52 am
