digijoc-Mele
I've been playing with a CD player recently that features Seamless Looping. The looping works really really well, regardless of the music genre.
I am wondering what algorithm these CD players use... they seem to be "on the money". Would be great if vDJ could be as accurate and get away from such a dependency on having an accurate BPM value for the track.
I think now is a good time to ask for Loop Triggering again ||>>||----- http://www.virtualdj.com/forum/display.html?topic=2259
I am wondering what algorithm these CD players use... they seem to be "on the money". Would be great if vDJ could be as accurate and get away from such a dependency on having an accurate BPM value for the track.
I think now is a good time to ask for Loop Triggering again ||>>||----- http://www.virtualdj.com/forum/display.html?topic=2259
Mensajes Fri 21 May 04 @ 4:28 am
Superstom
In my opinion this is already available. In the keyboard shortcuts you are able to define a loop_in and a loop_out. Just as those available on many cd players. I also thought that there are some skins with buttons for these short cuts (Denon 700 skin?)
Ewout
Ewout
Mensajes Fri 21 May 04 @ 9:17 pm
digijoc-Mele
Keyword here my friend is "seamless". Yes you can define IN and OUT loop positions, or even the autoloops in 2, 4, 8 bar increments, but the latter is completely dependent on having a good BPM value for the track and the former doesn't seem to be very "beat aware".
My point was that the CD player loop points seamed to be more "beat aware".
My point was that the CD player loop points seamed to be more "beat aware".
Mensajes Sat 22 May 04 @ 9:09 pm
Fruit
That's because teh bpm engine of these decks is more "beat-aware" too. Loops will always be completly dependant of the bpm...
Mensajes Sat 22 May 04 @ 9:45 pm
digijoc-Mele
"Loops will always be completly dependant of the bpm... "
Is this the case for the "more beat aware CD player" ? When I was foolin with the CD player I didn't see any BPM values anywhere.
Is this the case for the "more beat aware CD player" ? When I was foolin with the CD player I didn't see any BPM values anywhere.
Mensajes Tue 01 Jun 04 @ 6:30 pm
djstevieray
What CD player was this?
Mensajes Tue 01 Jun 04 @ 11:29 pm
Fruit
Maybe you have a deck that don't shows the bpm value, but if you can loop with it, be sure there's a bpm caculation inside that you can't view.
If the loop's length is not caclulated on bpm, on what could it be?
FRUiT94
If the loop's length is not caclulated on bpm, on what could it be?
FRUiT94
Mensajes Wed 02 Jun 04 @ 2:18 pm
digijoc-Mele
I don't know Fruit. I guess my point was that whatever method the CD player was using, it worked really well. I was doing the loops on Reggae music which doesn't generally lend itself well to auto BPM calculation.
BTW, the player was the American Audio 600. But many CD players advertise seamless loops, so I'm sure it's not just specific to the AA technology.
Come to think of it, I played around with a soft one time which I believe was called "DiscoMix" that also had awesome ability to do seamless loops.
BTW, the player was the American Audio 600. But many CD players advertise seamless loops, so I'm sure it's not just specific to the AA technology.
Come to think of it, I played around with a soft one time which I believe was called "DiscoMix" that also had awesome ability to do seamless loops.
Mensajes Wed 02 Jun 04 @ 10:17 pm
Fruit
Yes I think the point is : VDJ has a bad BPM calculator, regarding to cd players. I very don"t know what technology it uses, but VDJ has to be better on this point.
As you said, a software CAN have a good detection, as VisualDiscoMix or Traktor. Why not VDJ?
Regards
FRUiT94
As you said, a software CAN have a good detection, as VisualDiscoMix or Traktor. Why not VDJ?
Regards
FRUiT94
Mensajes Wed 02 Jun 04 @ 10:38 pm
djstevieray
The DCD-600, well there you go......
The DCD-600 doesn't do auto-beat looping, and does not have a BPM counter, except for the manual tap button on the controller. The reason your loops are so good on there is because you hit in where you want to start it and out where you want the loop to end. Believe it or not, a human and their ears is much more accurate at setting loops than a machine with a BPM counter, be it and CD player that DOES have an auto loop function (ie Pioneer CMX-3000) or a piece of software on a computer. Technology is getting there, but a real live breathing human is what makes the technology work better.
Oh yeah, the DCD-600 is in no way shape or form.....Beat Aware.
The DCD-600 doesn't do auto-beat looping, and does not have a BPM counter, except for the manual tap button on the controller. The reason your loops are so good on there is because you hit in where you want to start it and out where you want the loop to end. Believe it or not, a human and their ears is much more accurate at setting loops than a machine with a BPM counter, be it and CD player that DOES have an auto loop function (ie Pioneer CMX-3000) or a piece of software on a computer. Technology is getting there, but a real live breathing human is what makes the technology work better.
Oh yeah, the DCD-600 is in no way shape or form.....Beat Aware.
Mensajes Wed 02 Jun 04 @ 11:04 pm
digijoc-Mele
Not sure if I agree with you there djstevieray. Notice that the CD players advertise "Seamless". What does that really mean ? I think it means a little more than just "I can restart a segment instantly".
When I was playing with it, I wasn't very careful about hitting the IN / OUT points. I wasn't doing it completely out of whack, but I wasn't real careful either, yet the loop points started and ended pretty much on beat.
Also, as Fruit mentioned, VisualDiscoMix appear to have this figured out. Don't get me wrong, I love vDJ looping when it has an accurate BPM to work with, but the manual looping could be better... as in "seamless".
Go figure.
When I was playing with it, I wasn't very careful about hitting the IN / OUT points. I wasn't doing it completely out of whack, but I wasn't real careful either, yet the loop points started and ended pretty much on beat.
Also, as Fruit mentioned, VisualDiscoMix appear to have this figured out. Don't get me wrong, I love vDJ looping when it has an accurate BPM to work with, but the manual looping could be better... as in "seamless".
Go figure.
Mensajes Thu 03 Jun 04 @ 2:39 am
djstevieray
Go to the American DJ Forums, and look around. You will see that Stevie Ray is a moderator. Owns, much of their equipment, and whatever he don't own, he knows about ;) ....lol. Anyway I do own that deck, and have to respectfully disagree with you. You were just hitting the buttons at opportune times.... Well anyway, I'm glad you like our deck :)
Mensajes Thu 03 Jun 04 @ 5:39 am
Fruit
I think I guess Digijoc-Mele,
What you mean is : when you hit the "in" button, your deck doesn't start the loop at the point you hit, but at the nearest beat from here, and the end-loop-point too...
no?
That's what you call "seamless"?
Actually seamless means "with no blank time between the in-point and the out-point", nothing else.
Maybe VDJ could add an option, that when you hit the "in-point" button, VDJ sets this point automatically to the nearest beat, or the next beat. It could be handy.
or?
FRUiT94
What you mean is : when you hit the "in" button, your deck doesn't start the loop at the point you hit, but at the nearest beat from here, and the end-loop-point too...
no?
That's what you call "seamless"?
Actually seamless means "with no blank time between the in-point and the out-point", nothing else.
Maybe VDJ could add an option, that when you hit the "in-point" button, VDJ sets this point automatically to the nearest beat, or the next beat. It could be handy.
or?
FRUiT94
Mensajes Thu 03 Jun 04 @ 9:39 am
digijoc-Mele
Thanks for changing the angle of the description Fruit. That the IN / OUT goes to the nearest beat sounds like a better way to describe what I am talking about. How about that djstevieray ? Does that make more sense ?
Mensajes Thu 03 Jun 04 @ 11:50 am
djstevieray
Yes, Fruit is correct. A seemless loop means no space between the end of the loop and the beginning. It sets the beginning of the loop exactly where(when) you hit the in button, and the out point exactly where you hit the out button. It doesn't automatically adjust to the closest beat. There is a new software package on the market that does do that though.
I have noticed that VDJ isn't always accurate to setting the loop right where you hit the button. Is this what you are trying to describe? I think it has to do with the MP3. IT is much easier for a machine to do a loop with a CD because the time is always the exact same in bits, whereas an MP3 it can vary do to the compression. I know some CD players on the market that will play MP3's, can seemlessly loop CD's perfectly, but when you try it with an MP3 on a CD it comes out crappy.
I have noticed that VDJ isn't always accurate to setting the loop right where you hit the button. Is this what you are trying to describe? I think it has to do with the MP3. IT is much easier for a machine to do a loop with a CD because the time is always the exact same in bits, whereas an MP3 it can vary do to the compression. I know some CD players on the market that will play MP3's, can seemlessly loop CD's perfectly, but when you try it with an MP3 on a CD it comes out crappy.
Mensajes Thu 03 Jun 04 @ 4:15 pm
Superstom
Hope this will help:
Seamless loops mean that you will heare no delay in the audio stream when the player moves from the loop end point to the loop start point.
With older players like the CDJ 500 from pioneer you will hear the audio stop for a couple of milli seconds when the laser moves to the start point
I have a Denon 2500 player. Here the start of the loop is kept in memory, when the laser moves back to the start point the player is playing from memory until the laser is synced again.
This player has no bpm calculation so if you hit the end loop button on the wrong moment it will sound horrible.
The Numark cd players have a so called "smart loop". Here the player is using the build in bpm engine to get a "perfect" loop even if the end loop button is pressed at the wrong moment. But if the player doesn't get the BPM correct (break beats, RnB, etc) this results in a disaster.
Ewout
Seamless loops mean that you will heare no delay in the audio stream when the player moves from the loop end point to the loop start point.
With older players like the CDJ 500 from pioneer you will hear the audio stop for a couple of milli seconds when the laser moves to the start point
I have a Denon 2500 player. Here the start of the loop is kept in memory, when the laser moves back to the start point the player is playing from memory until the laser is synced again.
This player has no bpm calculation so if you hit the end loop button on the wrong moment it will sound horrible.
The Numark cd players have a so called "smart loop". Here the player is using the build in bpm engine to get a "perfect" loop even if the end loop button is pressed at the wrong moment. But if the player doesn't get the BPM correct (break beats, RnB, etc) this results in a disaster.
Ewout
Mensajes Thu 03 Jun 04 @ 4:17 pm
Fruit
So as I said, loop presets will always be dependant on the bpm value.
I think the idea from Digijoc-Mele about set the points to the closest beats could be a good implementation for VDJ. Personnaly I don't own a cd player so I couldn't notice that some players can do this.
Good idea.
FRUiT94
I think the idea from Digijoc-Mele about set the points to the closest beats could be a good implementation for VDJ. Personnaly I don't own a cd player so I couldn't notice that some players can do this.
Good idea.
FRUiT94
Mensajes Thu 03 Jun 04 @ 5:29 pm
digijoc-Mele
@djstevieray
I don't know if we are on the same page. I understand what everyone is saying about the definition of "seamless", but I do believe the CD player was doing a sort of move to the closest beat, completely independent of calculating a BPM value. So it ends up being more tolerant or more forgiving. You still have to get close to the beat for it to sound right, but it makes life easier.
Interesting point you made about MP3 data vs CDA data. I never thought of that. Great discussion.
I don't know if we are on the same page. I understand what everyone is saying about the definition of "seamless", but I do believe the CD player was doing a sort of move to the closest beat, completely independent of calculating a BPM value. So it ends up being more tolerant or more forgiving. You still have to get close to the beat for it to sound right, but it makes life easier.
Interesting point you made about MP3 data vs CDA data. I never thought of that. Great discussion.
Mensajes Thu 03 Jun 04 @ 6:42 pm
djstevieray
Yeah we are on the same page...I was trying to explain that the DCD-600 does not have any type of feature to assist the seamless loop. Wherever you push the button is where the loop starts, it won't move (adjust) it for you.
Mensajes Thu 03 Jun 04 @ 8:49 pm
digijoc-Mele
You know what guys, come to think of it, automatically setting the IN / OUT to the nearest beat shouldn't be too hard for any software to do. Cool Edit has a setting called "Zero Crossing" where a point is set at the nearest place that wave form crosses the 0 amplitude line.
I'm thinking that there is no way you would want to set a loop point above or below the 0 crossing, so this theory should work.... it does for Cool Edit.
That said, I want to make clear that I think the beat looping that vDJ currently does is fine and shouldn't be changed necessarily. The looping I am referring to here is the manual setting of the IN / OUT loop points.
Anyway, just a thought, what do you all think ?
I'm thinking that there is no way you would want to set a loop point above or below the 0 crossing, so this theory should work.... it does for Cool Edit.
That said, I want to make clear that I think the beat looping that vDJ currently does is fine and shouldn't be changed necessarily. The looping I am referring to here is the manual setting of the IN / OUT loop points.
Anyway, just a thought, what do you all think ?
Mensajes Fri 04 Jun 04 @ 3:02 am
