dj-e-lectric
(1) Automix should be able to find cold endings and let the song finish instead of cutting off the end of the song with a fade out.
(If a free consumer program like Win-Amp can do this it should be a piece of cake for VDJ)
(2) Incoming song should not fade in, it should come in at it's set volume as they do on radio station seques....again win-amp has this option
(3) If there is a cue point set on the incoming song the song should start with that cue point NOT at the very first sound on the video
If these three corrections are made (or at least added as a user selectable option) then automix would be pretty damn close to the perfect radio style automation program.
(If a free consumer program like Win-Amp can do this it should be a piece of cake for VDJ)
(2) Incoming song should not fade in, it should come in at it's set volume as they do on radio station seques....again win-amp has this option
(3) If there is a cue point set on the incoming song the song should start with that cue point NOT at the very first sound on the video
If these three corrections are made (or at least added as a user selectable option) then automix would be pretty damn close to the perfect radio style automation program.
Mensajes Mon 21 Jul 08 @ 5:07 am
cstoll
The automix is not intended to be a 'radio' style automix. It is to be a DJ style automix.
So point 1 you made is valid that cold endings should be better recognized, however; depending on how VirtualDJ reads the upcoming track it will choose from 3 styles to mix in the next track and your point is valid for the CUT mix. Fade and Tempo mixes will risk the songs ending from being played, just as a DJ makes that risk now.
Point 2 - again if using a CUT mix I would agree. However in most DJ blending you typically slide in the upcoming song when fading or a beat (tempo) mix. Yes there are some cases where a 'slam in' is necessary.
Point 3 - I would agree with you but there is a difference between the CUE point and the AUTOMIX CUE point. You can set the AUTOMIX Cue point if you wish to go through each track and do so. I would have to disagree that the cue point I use to manually mix a song and any automix point are 1 in the same. And actually Automix has 3 starting cue points that can be set - 1 for each mix style (Cut, Fade, and Tempo).
So again, if being a radio automation program is what we would be trying to achieve I would agree. And I don't think their are many DJ that want to go to the club or mobile gig and sound like a radio station. IF they are going to have the system 'cheat' for them, I am sure they would rather want it to sound like a DJ doing it and not a radio station.
So point 1 you made is valid that cold endings should be better recognized, however; depending on how VirtualDJ reads the upcoming track it will choose from 3 styles to mix in the next track and your point is valid for the CUT mix. Fade and Tempo mixes will risk the songs ending from being played, just as a DJ makes that risk now.
Point 2 - again if using a CUT mix I would agree. However in most DJ blending you typically slide in the upcoming song when fading or a beat (tempo) mix. Yes there are some cases where a 'slam in' is necessary.
Point 3 - I would agree with you but there is a difference between the CUE point and the AUTOMIX CUE point. You can set the AUTOMIX Cue point if you wish to go through each track and do so. I would have to disagree that the cue point I use to manually mix a song and any automix point are 1 in the same. And actually Automix has 3 starting cue points that can be set - 1 for each mix style (Cut, Fade, and Tempo).
So again, if being a radio automation program is what we would be trying to achieve I would agree. And I don't think their are many DJ that want to go to the club or mobile gig and sound like a radio station. IF they are going to have the system 'cheat' for them, I am sure they would rather want it to sound like a DJ doing it and not a radio station.
Mensajes Mon 21 Jul 08 @ 5:32 am
dj-e-lectric
I can understand if you are beat matching you want a fade from one to the other, but automix is not beat matching it is simply going from song to song as a radio station does.
I did not know we could set automix cue points. You say the starting cue point can be set for cut, fade, and tempo....so does that mean if I set a "cut" cue point my songs will not fade in they will start at the actual volume level like a radio segue? If so how do I set the cut cue point?
As far as your point about "cheating" I don't know ANY QUALITY Djs that fade the incoming song in if they are not beat matching.......it just isn't generally accepted as a proper way to do a seque, especially in a club! This a an ancient wedding Dj technigue that lets the Dj think (mistakenly) that the crowd will think he knows how to beatmix when he can't.
I don't think many Djs use the Automix for performance (not that I care if they do or not because it's their show the have the right if they want, but based on your statements wouldn't YOU consider that REALLY CHEATING anyway?) We like to use the automix during times when we have no Dj (happy hours, off nights, inbetween band breaks, etc.) and play good upbeat and entertaining video that is not necessarily on the Djs playlist (like a lot of rock and non-dance radio pop) but the dialog and crap at the begining of so many of the videos just kills the mood (now that I know I can set the cue that will fix that) and you know rock people, they get pissed off if you cut off that cold guitar ending or drum crescendo. Then the fade in's are so amatuerinsh and drop the energy and the mood between the songs terrible...just because the Dj isn't on at those times does not mean we want to sacrifice quality in our presentation!!!
In the past VDJ has been so good at incorporating user options into the software I just thought you may want to consider these options to continue to make the program improving with even greater flexibility for all users.....and maybe it would increase your market to clubs and restaurants that only occassional live Djs as this would be much more attractive to them also.
I did not know we could set automix cue points. You say the starting cue point can be set for cut, fade, and tempo....so does that mean if I set a "cut" cue point my songs will not fade in they will start at the actual volume level like a radio segue? If so how do I set the cut cue point?
As far as your point about "cheating" I don't know ANY QUALITY Djs that fade the incoming song in if they are not beat matching.......it just isn't generally accepted as a proper way to do a seque, especially in a club! This a an ancient wedding Dj technigue that lets the Dj think (mistakenly) that the crowd will think he knows how to beatmix when he can't.
I don't think many Djs use the Automix for performance (not that I care if they do or not because it's their show the have the right if they want, but based on your statements wouldn't YOU consider that REALLY CHEATING anyway?) We like to use the automix during times when we have no Dj (happy hours, off nights, inbetween band breaks, etc.) and play good upbeat and entertaining video that is not necessarily on the Djs playlist (like a lot of rock and non-dance radio pop) but the dialog and crap at the begining of so many of the videos just kills the mood (now that I know I can set the cue that will fix that) and you know rock people, they get pissed off if you cut off that cold guitar ending or drum crescendo. Then the fade in's are so amatuerinsh and drop the energy and the mood between the songs terrible...just because the Dj isn't on at those times does not mean we want to sacrifice quality in our presentation!!!
In the past VDJ has been so good at incorporating user options into the software I just thought you may want to consider these options to continue to make the program improving with even greater flexibility for all users.....and maybe it would increase your market to clubs and restaurants that only occassional live Djs as this would be much more attractive to them also.
Mensajes Mon 21 Jul 08 @ 9:34 am
cstoll
wow, sorry if you took my reply in a negative way towards your post... let me see if I can clarify somethings.
1. The AutoMix is designed to mimic what a DJ would do. This has been the premise of the Automix from day 1. It did not and does not have the 'radio automation' concept in mind. Though with some effort you could come close to mimicking the radio type play.
2. Let me jump to your last statements -- we are always listening to user suggestions. I never said in my reply that we are not listening to your suggestion. I was replying to your comments with what is 'currently' in the program and the direction from where the automix originated from as I pointed out in point 1.
3. Setting Automix points -- please see the manual, there is a section on this. And post back your specific question and will gladly help.
As to a quality DJ not using fades - well that we could debate that, but not the right thread. And what we, DJs; call beat matching is Tempo mixing in the VirtualDJ Automix.
As to the bulk of your reply - the choice of the word 'cheating' was used to to describe when we (the DJ) take those breaks or step away from the system and would like the perception that we are still DJing. And, you might be surprised at how many "DJ's" using VirtualDJ are really using the automix for their performances. Yet you are right that the most USERs of the AUTOMIX are people that are wanting to do the happy hour,off nights, etc. with VirtualDJ.
But please see the manual, read about the Automix. Glad to help you if you need it....
Chris
1. The AutoMix is designed to mimic what a DJ would do. This has been the premise of the Automix from day 1. It did not and does not have the 'radio automation' concept in mind. Though with some effort you could come close to mimicking the radio type play.
2. Let me jump to your last statements -- we are always listening to user suggestions. I never said in my reply that we are not listening to your suggestion. I was replying to your comments with what is 'currently' in the program and the direction from where the automix originated from as I pointed out in point 1.
3. Setting Automix points -- please see the manual, there is a section on this. And post back your specific question and will gladly help.
As to a quality DJ not using fades - well that we could debate that, but not the right thread. And what we, DJs; call beat matching is Tempo mixing in the VirtualDJ Automix.
As to the bulk of your reply - the choice of the word 'cheating' was used to to describe when we (the DJ) take those breaks or step away from the system and would like the perception that we are still DJing. And, you might be surprised at how many "DJ's" using VirtualDJ are really using the automix for their performances. Yet you are right that the most USERs of the AUTOMIX are people that are wanting to do the happy hour,off nights, etc. with VirtualDJ.
But please see the manual, read about the Automix. Glad to help you if you need it....
Chris
Mensajes Mon 21 Jul 08 @ 9:57 am
dj-e-lectric
Sorry to you too Chris...my last remark was really intended as a compliment to VDJ for all of the features in the past users had suggested and you guys implimented, but I guess fromthe tome of the rest of the email I can see how you could have misinterprted it.
I didn't mean to seem so negative...I know I seem to sometimes (I like to think of it as "passionate" and sometimes that comes across in the written word as negative and mean)...I really am a nice guy, just very direct and opinionated!
I did not see a manual for 5.1 in the download section where is it?
I didn't mean to seem so negative...I know I seem to sometimes (I like to think of it as "passionate" and sometimes that comes across in the written word as negative and mean)...I really am a nice guy, just very direct and opinionated!
I did not see a manual for 5.1 in the download section where is it?
Mensajes Mon 21 Jul 08 @ 3:39 pm
Tear Em 'Up
dj-e-lectric wrote :
I did not see a manual for 5.1 in the download section where is it?
It is in My Documents/VirtualDJ/Virtual DJ-5 Userguide. It is a PDF file so you might need Adobe to open it, but if you do not have it there are free versions available...
Mensajes Mon 21 Jul 08 @ 3:51 pm
mp3jrick
Mensajes Mon 21 Jul 08 @ 4:57 pm
cstoll
http://www.virtualdj.com/wiki/
More exact for the Automix Mix Points - http://www.virtualdj.com/wiki/index.php/AUTOMIX
Playlist panel - http://www.virtualdj.com/wiki/index.php/BROWSER#Playlist_Panel_.283.29
And all the PDF Manuals - http://www.virtualdj.com/wiki/index.php/PDFManuals
More exact for the Automix Mix Points - http://www.virtualdj.com/wiki/index.php/AUTOMIX
Playlist panel - http://www.virtualdj.com/wiki/index.php/BROWSER#Playlist_Panel_.283.29
And all the PDF Manuals - http://www.virtualdj.com/wiki/index.php/PDFManuals
Mensajes Mon 21 Jul 08 @ 8:17 pm
Chris Davis
Well..... we are back onto this subject again. I'm sorry cstoll but I do not agree that DJ's do not want VDJ to sound like a radio mix. There have been many many DJ's over the last 4 years request that the cross over be improved. However VDJ have persisted in only improving a fade out and fade in type of cross fade. (and a crude cut type of mix)
Performing great live mixes is easy with VDJ, but when we swap to automix we want to have a clean "radio" type sound, not have a faded end and a faded start.
Changing cue points is a big and un necessary job when a computer could do this for us and it will not deliver exaxtly what we want anyway.
How many times does this subject need to be posted before people who think they know what we want will give us what we want?
Who would use a radio mix option? Wedding DJs who also focus on MCing, Pub DJ's and DJ's who are entertain and like to concentrate on performing with more than music and video.
We need this enhancement.
We automix DJ's also need the option of the automix button to come back. Fiddling around double clicking the next song in the queue is annoying when you need to quickly cut from one song to the next.
Performing great live mixes is easy with VDJ, but when we swap to automix we want to have a clean "radio" type sound, not have a faded end and a faded start.
Changing cue points is a big and un necessary job when a computer could do this for us and it will not deliver exaxtly what we want anyway.
How many times does this subject need to be posted before people who think they know what we want will give us what we want?
Who would use a radio mix option? Wedding DJs who also focus on MCing, Pub DJ's and DJ's who are entertain and like to concentrate on performing with more than music and video.
We need this enhancement.
We automix DJ's also need the option of the automix button to come back. Fiddling around double clicking the next song in the queue is annoying when you need to quickly cut from one song to the next.
Mensajes Mon 21 Jul 08 @ 8:54 pm
dj-e-lectric
The setting of cue points on each track is nice, (although very time consuming and very tedius) but there should be a way to set the fade type GLOBALLY to change the default from fade to cut to eliminate our nessecity to set individual cue points on about 70%-80% of the songs.
Ultimatley the program should be able to be put in a GLOBAL SMART combination of cut and fade .i.e the program should be able to look ahead to the end of each song automatically when being analyzed and decide if it is a fade, cold fade or cold end (very simple to program I would think since most home players like win-amp and such do this). If you have the GLOBAL default for the automix set to CUT then when the computer detects a fade ending on the outgoing song when it reaches a certain volume level drop (this can be a user selectable level in config settings)then the incoming song is brought in at it's intended volume while the outgoing song continues it's fade for a predetermined time like .5 seconds or so (this time should also be able to be set in the config just as the cross fade time is user setable). If the look ahead determines the outgoing song is a cold end or cold fade then the same thing happens except the incoming song starts right on the cold end and the cold fade continues from the outging song for that .5 seconds underneath it.
Obviously you won't be able to please every Dj for every song with a GLOBAL feature but like I said it will take care of probably 70-80% of them and then still retain the option of manually changing the cue and fade points for the other 20% of songs if needed.
Lastly, personally I like having the automix operate out of only one player. For me when I come in during the day it allows me to do my file updating, previewing the new rips just added, bpm scanning and setting my live Dj cue points while not interupting the happy hour set. I do see why so many people object to it though so maybe this too can be a config setting whether you want to use one player or two player for automix.
Ultimatley the program should be able to be put in a GLOBAL SMART combination of cut and fade .i.e the program should be able to look ahead to the end of each song automatically when being analyzed and decide if it is a fade, cold fade or cold end (very simple to program I would think since most home players like win-amp and such do this). If you have the GLOBAL default for the automix set to CUT then when the computer detects a fade ending on the outgoing song when it reaches a certain volume level drop (this can be a user selectable level in config settings)then the incoming song is brought in at it's intended volume while the outgoing song continues it's fade for a predetermined time like .5 seconds or so (this time should also be able to be set in the config just as the cross fade time is user setable). If the look ahead determines the outgoing song is a cold end or cold fade then the same thing happens except the incoming song starts right on the cold end and the cold fade continues from the outging song for that .5 seconds underneath it.
Obviously you won't be able to please every Dj for every song with a GLOBAL feature but like I said it will take care of probably 70-80% of them and then still retain the option of manually changing the cue and fade points for the other 20% of songs if needed.
Lastly, personally I like having the automix operate out of only one player. For me when I come in during the day it allows me to do my file updating, previewing the new rips just added, bpm scanning and setting my live Dj cue points while not interupting the happy hour set. I do see why so many people object to it though so maybe this too can be a config setting whether you want to use one player or two player for automix.
Mensajes Tue 22 Jul 08 @ 1:52 am
cstoll
Chris Davis wrote :
Well..... we are back onto this subject again. I'm sorry cstoll but I do not agree that DJ's do not want VDJ to sound like a radio mix. There have been many many DJ's over the last 4 years request that the cross over be improved. However VDJ have persisted in only improving a fade out and fade in type of cross fade. (and a crude cut type of mix)
Well as I have said the automix 'does not' and 'is not' intended to be radio automation. There are specific programs out their that already do that.
Chris Davis wrote :
Well personally as a DJ if I am doing a 'GREAT LIVE' mix and need to step away, I don't want it to sound like I turned off the 'great mix' and turned on the radio.
Performing great live mixes is easy with VDJ, but when we swap to automix we want to have a clean "radio" type sound, not have a faded end and a faded start.
Chris Davis wrote :
I think you answered your on statement on why it is a necessary job to set cue points in order to make the VirtualDJ automix work for you.
Changing cue points is a big and un necessary job when a computer could do this for us and it will not deliver exaxtly what we want anyway.
Chris Davis wrote :
I will make a recommendation that we strip out the entire automix features and implement a 'strick' radio style automix. Strip off all dead air on tracks, Fades always from the last 4s out between volume level of 100% and 60%, incoming track always at 100% volume and is dropped in at 3s point of the end track.
How many times does this subject need to be posted before people who think they know what we want will give us what we want?
Chris Davis wrote :
We automix DJ's also need the option of the automix button to come back. Fiddling around double clicking the next song in the queue is annoying when you need to quickly cut from one song to the next.
dj-e-lectric ; you asked about people using automix to perform ?
Mensajes Tue 22 Jul 08 @ 6:04 am
the double click IS crappy .......
it is embarassing that win amp can do some things vdj can't
i have all these keyboard shortcuts , except mix now to the current deck
Traktor's dbl deck automix is way better
also we still need a more comprehensive context menu for songs in the playlist ......just repeat and preview is insufficient
preview window still needs a stripe or waveform visual .......
i sometimes think that no matter what we say , they will ignore it and do what they think the euro club guys want ........
it is embarassing that win amp can do some things vdj can't
i have all these keyboard shortcuts , except mix now to the current deck
Traktor's dbl deck automix is way better
also we still need a more comprehensive context menu for songs in the playlist ......just repeat and preview is insufficient
preview window still needs a stripe or waveform visual .......
i sometimes think that no matter what we say , they will ignore it and do what they think the euro club guys want ........
Mensajes Tue 22 Jul 08 @ 9:20 am
dj-e-lectric
cstoll wrote :
Well as I have said the automix 'does not' and 'is not' intended to be radio automation. There are specific programs out their that already do that.
I for one am not suggesting a full blown radio automation program...just so we have the OPTION of selecting a radio style seque. While overall you guys do a fantastic job taking suggestions and making improvements to the program sometimes it seems that if we want options to be able to tailor the program to our individual need the team take offense to it like we are ridiculing their way of Djing....quite the opposite...we want to IMPROVE our shows, not denegrate yours.
cstoll wrote :
Well personally as a DJ if I am doing a 'GREAT LIVE' mix and need to step away, I don't want it to sound like I turned off the 'great mix' and turned on the radio.
Not all of us are lucky enough to be able to spin in clubs that allow us to be able to do beatmixing all night long....MOST clubs/bars in America want a variety of RADIO EDIT songs from hip hop to rock to disco to country and everything inbetween and (in my opinion and the opinion of the crowds at the hundreds of clubs I have made popular in my 25 years) it sound really stupid to try to beat mix diferent genres just for the DJ EGO to show he can do it....when you are playing the original versions most people don't like it if you try to beat mix between distinctly different genres so when we "step away" having a clean radio style seque set is IMPERATIVE to the quality of our show...especially as I said to keep the quality during times a live Dj is NOT used.
Chris Davis wrote :
I will make a recommendation that we strip out the entire automix features and implement a 'strick' radio style automix. Strip off all dead air on tracks, Fades always from the last 4s out between volume level of 100% and 60%, incoming track always at 100% volume and is dropped in at 3s point of the end track.
Chris, now you are doing the same as them in reverse....DO NOT do away with what they have or FORCE those levels...make them user configuarable options......operator CHOICES are what make a great program. We all think and style differently and VDJ should reflext that in this area as well as the other areas they have done a great job in.
cstoll wrote :
dj-e-lectric ; you asked about people using automix to perform ?
Touche.........
Mensajes Tue 22 Jul 08 @ 10:20 am
cstoll
I think you meant this quote --
As I wrote this statement -
Your response:
Anyhow...
So not that we are not listening... there are a lot of things in the market going on and a lot of features that everyone wants modified to a higher order of use. Prioritizing and implementation of changes are not going to fit everyone's schedules. All comments are duly noted.
Chris Davis wrote :
How many times does this subject need to be posted before people who think they know what we want will give us what we want?
As I wrote this statement -
cstoll wrote :
I will make a recommendation that we strip out the entire automix features and implement a 'strick' radio style automix. Strip off all dead air on tracks, Fades always from the last 4s out between volume level of 100% and 60%, incoming track always at 100% volume and is dropped in at 3s point of the end track.
Your response:
dj-e-lectric wrote :
Chris, now you are doing the same as them in reverse....DO NOT do away with what they have or FORCE those levels...make them user configuarable options......operator CHOICES are what make a great program. We all think and style differently and VDJ should reflext that in this area as well as the other areas they have done a great job in.
Anyhow...
dj-e-lectric wrote :
Understand and noted.
I for one am not suggesting a full blown radio automation program... just so we have the OPTION of selecting a radio style seque.
dj-e-lectric wrote :
Not all of us are lucky enough to be able to spin in clubs that allow us to be able to do beatmixing all night long....MOST clubs/bars in America want a variety of RADIO EDIT songs from hip hop to rock to disco to country and everything inbetween and (in my opinion and the opinion of the crowds at the hundreds of clubs I have made popular in my 25 years) it sound really stupid to try to beat mix diferent genres just for the DJ EGO to show he can do it....when you are playing the original versions most people don't like it if you try to beat mix between distinctly different genres so when we "step away" having a clean radio style seque set is IMPERATIVE to the quality of our show...especially as I said to keep the quality during times a live Dj is NOT used.
Don't disagree with what you are saying... however; with time and effort you can setup VirtualDJ to get as close to this as you want... but just like any GREAT show anyone does, people need to put time in to prepare for it. And if a person doesn't want to make or put in the time - at this moment, all I can suggest is that there are products out there that will get you the capability faster.
cstoll wrote :
Well personally as a DJ if I am doing a 'GREAT LIVE' mix and need to step away, I don't want it to sound like I turned off the 'great mix' and turned on the radio.
Not all of us are lucky enough to be able to spin in clubs that allow us to be able to do beatmixing all night long....MOST clubs/bars in America want a variety of RADIO EDIT songs from hip hop to rock to disco to country and everything inbetween and (in my opinion and the opinion of the crowds at the hundreds of clubs I have made popular in my 25 years) it sound really stupid to try to beat mix diferent genres just for the DJ EGO to show he can do it....when you are playing the original versions most people don't like it if you try to beat mix between distinctly different genres so when we "step away" having a clean radio style seque set is IMPERATIVE to the quality of our show...especially as I said to keep the quality during times a live Dj is NOT used.
So not that we are not listening... there are a lot of things in the market going on and a lot of features that everyone wants modified to a higher order of use. Prioritizing and implementation of changes are not going to fit everyone's schedules. All comments are duly noted.
Mensajes Tue 22 Jul 08 @ 12:46 pm
dj-e-lectric
Thanks for all your consideration
Mensajes Wed 23 Jul 08 @ 10:18 am
Timmyg1978
chucknorrisyouwimps wrote :
preview window still needs a stripe or waveform visual .......
preview window still needs a stripe or waveform visual .......
I'd like to see that as well, would definatly make planning next few songs alot easier;^]
Mensajes Wed 23 Jul 08 @ 10:25 am