Poloralphloren
Hi All,
I know this topic has come up in the past, but I just thought I'd see what everyone's opinions are these days on the issue of MP3's vs. WAV's.
These days hard drive space is so cheap, there really is no need to use highly compressed files -- a 250 gb hard drive is less than $100 now! So for MP3, I always use files at 320 kbps when possible, and even WAV's barely put a dent in hard drive capacity these days.
It has been claimed that most people cannot tell the difference between a high quality MP3 and a WAV. On my system at home, I have to agree -- the difference is barely discernable, but I can still hear it.
However, I've also heard that MP3's strip away "unnecessary" parts of the music -- this wouldn't be a problem if it were just noise it was removing... But actually, because MP3's are more intended for headphones, they cut off the part of the spectrum most vital to electronic music: BASS !
I have heard that this is noticeable on large systems, like those found in big clubs. Anyone actually used VDJ in a big club setting and seen this ? Or is it a small technical issue that only snobby music geeks would actually be able to notice? I'm wondering because I want to start building a collection of music, and not sure if I should go to WAV or not worry about it and use MP3. WAV's are readily available on Beatport.com for only an extra $1 per track. And again given the cheapness of hard drives these days, is it really worth sacrificing the quality to save space? I mean, a 250 gb hard drive will take a long time to fill up, even if you're collecting WAV's all the time. 250 gb is a MASSIVE collection of music, and it's only $90! Imagine what the prices will be in a couple years by the time it fills up! The problem I'm having with WAV's, however, is that they put quite a strain on the computer, and occasionally results in slight skips or sputters... And I have a start-of-the-art machine (4400+ XP 64-bit Athlon dual core, 2 gigs memory, A8N-SLI premium MB)...
So both methods result in some quality lost -- playback with WAV's has problems every once in a while, but maybe will not be an issue with future upgrade of VDJ? And certainly not an issue in a few years, as computers get so much better so fast. But MP3's are much smaller, much less strain on the computer, faster to move around with, and barely noticeable difference from WAV.
So what's the verdict? What is everyone's opinion on this?
I know this topic has come up in the past, but I just thought I'd see what everyone's opinions are these days on the issue of MP3's vs. WAV's.
These days hard drive space is so cheap, there really is no need to use highly compressed files -- a 250 gb hard drive is less than $100 now! So for MP3, I always use files at 320 kbps when possible, and even WAV's barely put a dent in hard drive capacity these days.
It has been claimed that most people cannot tell the difference between a high quality MP3 and a WAV. On my system at home, I have to agree -- the difference is barely discernable, but I can still hear it.
However, I've also heard that MP3's strip away "unnecessary" parts of the music -- this wouldn't be a problem if it were just noise it was removing... But actually, because MP3's are more intended for headphones, they cut off the part of the spectrum most vital to electronic music: BASS !
I have heard that this is noticeable on large systems, like those found in big clubs. Anyone actually used VDJ in a big club setting and seen this ? Or is it a small technical issue that only snobby music geeks would actually be able to notice? I'm wondering because I want to start building a collection of music, and not sure if I should go to WAV or not worry about it and use MP3. WAV's are readily available on Beatport.com for only an extra $1 per track. And again given the cheapness of hard drives these days, is it really worth sacrificing the quality to save space? I mean, a 250 gb hard drive will take a long time to fill up, even if you're collecting WAV's all the time. 250 gb is a MASSIVE collection of music, and it's only $90! Imagine what the prices will be in a couple years by the time it fills up! The problem I'm having with WAV's, however, is that they put quite a strain on the computer, and occasionally results in slight skips or sputters... And I have a start-of-the-art machine (4400+ XP 64-bit Athlon dual core, 2 gigs memory, A8N-SLI premium MB)...
So both methods result in some quality lost -- playback with WAV's has problems every once in a while, but maybe will not be an issue with future upgrade of VDJ? And certainly not an issue in a few years, as computers get so much better so fast. But MP3's are much smaller, much less strain on the computer, faster to move around with, and barely noticeable difference from WAV.
So what's the verdict? What is everyone's opinion on this?
Mensajes Thu 27 Apr 06 @ 5:08 pm
bagpuss
Upload some samples, we'll all listen and write back our toughts, subjected to songs, encoders and bite rates, the only way the test can be done.., if someone wants to say one is better than the other they better know how to describe what they 'hear' is better ;), words aren't enough.
Mensajes Thu 27 Apr 06 @ 5:34 pm
phillydj
i'am using mp3's ..whatever song i rarely use i have at 196kbs and 256kbs for the ones i use alot and that have alot of instruments in the arrangement. on that same note most newer hiphop and such started of on a pc so it was digital to begin with or doesn't have enought detail that u would miss anything my compressing
Mensajes Thu 27 Apr 06 @ 5:37 pm
Poloralphloren
How do you upload samples to the forum?
Mensajes Thu 27 Apr 06 @ 5:40 pm
vpcdj
actually i was just looking at hdds on bestbuy (and newegg) http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?type=category&id=pcmcat33200050001 and i see even 500GB is attainable ($349.99). on newegg they'r even cheaper 500GB for $280.
would this be the reason to mess with wav for me? no. wav for now is too bulky at an average 48MB a file. and there arent too many files i look for in wav.
estimate about how many files u get in a period and calculate about how long ur hdd will last u with wav files. with me 250GB in wav would last me 106 days (4 months). and thats audio only. with video files it'd cut the period to over a month or something so i just cant do it.
with internet at home i used to get about 100 tracks a day. CDS and albums.
i'll pass wav, a good soundcard and good equalizing can make mp3 sound perfect for me.
(besides, i used to get more music than i could even listen to myself. 100 tracks is way off understated).
would this be the reason to mess with wav for me? no. wav for now is too bulky at an average 48MB a file. and there arent too many files i look for in wav.
estimate about how many files u get in a period and calculate about how long ur hdd will last u with wav files. with me 250GB in wav would last me 106 days (4 months). and thats audio only. with video files it'd cut the period to over a month or something so i just cant do it.
with internet at home i used to get about 100 tracks a day. CDS and albums.
i'll pass wav, a good soundcard and good equalizing can make mp3 sound perfect for me.
(besides, i used to get more music than i could even listen to myself. 100 tracks is way off understated).
Mensajes Thu 27 Apr 06 @ 5:41 pm
Andrew87
^ That must have been expensive.
Regarding the original poster having problems with wav files stuttering, Virtual DJ decompresses even mp3s to wav, your problem is quite odd, were these wav files 44.1 kHz 16bit?
Regarding the original poster having problems with wav files stuttering, Virtual DJ decompresses even mp3s to wav, your problem is quite odd, were these wav files 44.1 kHz 16bit?
Mensajes Thu 27 Apr 06 @ 5:44 pm
phillydj
wav files are about the size of a average music video .. i rather go with the video
Mensajes Thu 27 Apr 06 @ 5:46 pm
bagpuss
@Poloralphloren,
You'd need to upload it to a free upload site, there are many, for example a free esnips account allows you to upload up to a 1GB of files (anything you want): http://www.esnips.com/signin/index.jsp, once you've uploaded the files you can post the links here for us to discuss, if you choose to do so ;).
Mensajes Thu 27 Apr 06 @ 5:54 pm
vpcdj
'ts not the time to be sarcastic drew. i kept reading that line 10 times to try understand it. but i got it now so i'ma plead the 5th.
Mensajes Thu 27 Apr 06 @ 6:08 pm
Poloralphloren
Hey guys, thanks for all the feedback... The stuttering thing may not be because of WAV's actually, I changed my system around a lot recently, still optimising, thought I heard a couple glitches with WAV files playing, but may not be because of file format... Anyway, the question still remains, is it worth it to save the space to use MP3? If you're collecting 100 tracks a day, then WAV is not for you :) But most people aren't collecting music at quite that rate... But is the difference significant? Not much, on a home system, but in a big club? That's my main question. I don't have access to a huge sound system at a big club to test out different samples, so I don't know... I'm asking, does anyone use MP3's to DJ at a club on a big sound system, and is the difference noticeable?
Here's a couple samples I set up on eSnips (thanks for the info on that one!), let me know what you think... Not the prettiest music, all I had in both WAV and 320 kbps MP3 easily available, but there's lots of bass and complex sounds going on, so it's a good test... Listen at a high volume at about 30 seconds into the track, I can definitely hear the difference. The WAV bass sounds richer, and the overall sound is "cleaner" somehow...
http://esnips.com/doc/cbbe4e6d-a98f-45f0-858b-ef50eb01f9f7/Wikk!d---Habits---320-kbps-MP3-clip.mp3
http://esnips.com/doc/fa51b85b-47ba-43e5-ab80-c77d05f5bced/Wikk!d---Habits---WAV-clip.wav
Let me know what you think, and if you have any problem with the links!
Here's a couple samples I set up on eSnips (thanks for the info on that one!), let me know what you think... Not the prettiest music, all I had in both WAV and 320 kbps MP3 easily available, but there's lots of bass and complex sounds going on, so it's a good test... Listen at a high volume at about 30 seconds into the track, I can definitely hear the difference. The WAV bass sounds richer, and the overall sound is "cleaner" somehow...
http://esnips.com/doc/cbbe4e6d-a98f-45f0-858b-ef50eb01f9f7/Wikk!d---Habits---320-kbps-MP3-clip.mp3
http://esnips.com/doc/fa51b85b-47ba-43e5-ab80-c77d05f5bced/Wikk!d---Habits---WAV-clip.wav
Let me know what you think, and if you have any problem with the links!
Mensajes Thu 27 Apr 06 @ 7:16 pm
Andrew87
I'm sure dj-in-norway, acw_dj and others who regularly play out in clubs and have lots of experience with vdj will be able to give you a good reply. However, if you can hear a difference and don't mind paying the additional $1 a track fro wav files, then you may want to consider flac compression.
flac is lossless and acheives a compression rate of between 30 and 50%. So if you download a wav file (or rip from cd) and don't mind going through the extra process of encoding it to flac then that could be an option. You could fit around 4000 tracks encoded with flac on a 160gb (147gb after partioning) harddrive.
flac is lossless and acheives a compression rate of between 30 and 50%. So if you download a wav file (or rip from cd) and don't mind going through the extra process of encoding it to flac then that could be an option. You could fit around 4000 tracks encoded with flac on a 160gb (147gb after partioning) harddrive.
Mensajes Thu 27 Apr 06 @ 7:22 pm
bagpuss
@Poloralphloren, I'll test those examples later when I get my system rigged up, could I ask you first what encoder you used? (as this is a very big factor in what the MP3 might sound like).
You said you were having problems with wav file playback, what is your CPU and Ram?, if you have 512mb or less then skips should be expected, that is unless your using very short tracks and/or have a very finely tuned system (windows etc).
You said you were having problems with wav file playback, what is your CPU and Ram?, if you have 512mb or less then skips should be expected, that is unless your using very short tracks and/or have a very finely tuned system (windows etc).
Mensajes Thu 27 Apr 06 @ 8:02 pm
Poloralphloren
I believe the MP3 was encoded by LAME MP3, but I'll hafta check... LAME is the best I hear ? If you're not convinced, encode the WAV file yourself with your favorite MP3 encoder...
Anyway, the difference is subtle, just thought I'd point it out cuz I want us all to be the best DJ's we can be ;)
As far as playback, it's basically fine, didn't mean to complicate the issue with that -- problems I had were extremely minor, and probably due to setup changes I made stressing the computer's resources...
Anyway, the difference is subtle, just thought I'd point it out cuz I want us all to be the best DJ's we can be ;)
As far as playback, it's basically fine, didn't mean to complicate the issue with that -- problems I had were extremely minor, and probably due to setup changes I made stressing the computer's resources...
Mensajes Thu 27 Apr 06 @ 9:08 pm
Dj Biel Lucena
MP3 forever... it's very very good... WMA no is very good
Mensajes Thu 27 Apr 06 @ 9:23 pm
Rune (DJ-In-Norway)
the bad news:
- MP3 is COMPRESSED AUDIO, and yes... its does have its usses. Such as Pre-echo on percussions, smeared cymbals, tremolos on harmonics, etc etc etc. These artifacts are very small, and most listeners cant tell or care.. But try make mp3 of a great defined trance track with lots of instruments, or even better, try make a mp3 of a classical music piece...
Mp3's loose some crispness, some of the punch and for sure some of the dynamics.
So, this would lead to the conclution that on scaled systems, such as a Club speaker system, the sound would be bad. And in theory, yes.. it would worse be than real CDs or wave. Of course!;) its compressed audio... some information is LOST and taken away! (if you wanna hear the difference, get together with a band and try to compare sound on a stadion speaker system.. mp3 vs wave/cd).
the good news:
- Mp3s save a lot of space, so the small artifacts vs the saved space... the saved space wins ;)
- Clubs dont really have hi-fi and good defined speakers usually, but rather simple PA systems made to play loud, and having huge bass elements (but you can hear a small difference between wave/cd and mp3s still, mostly artifacts in highs, but also a bit of a "flatt/dull" feel, but this is really not something to be bothered about)
- We dont play mp3s at stadion speakers ;) lol
IMPORTANT NOTE : what compression, what algorithm preset and what encoder you use for mp3 has EVERYTHING to say!! use 192-320kbits compression, variable bitrate, and a good LAME preset.
the future:
- yes, harddrives are getting bigger and bigger, cheaper and cheaper... So, some might start ripping/saving to wave, instead of mp3, in the future
- Using wave should in theory work better for VDJ and all audio apps (mp3's need to be decompressed to wave first)
conclution:
- yes, mp3s have MINOR issues, and a bit less definition/dynamics, but the pratical sides of using mp3 regarding harddrive space compensate for the loss... And reason we use MP3 in the first place;) But that might change, when harddrives get damn cheap and big ;)
Remember, mp3 was "invented" purely to make music fit on hardrives/mobile devices... But now that space consideration is getting less and less important
But you are perfectly right ... mp3 where made for lower system specs (home speakers, pc speakers, mobile devices) at start. But the algoritms got better, and mp3 is not bad at all now...
And remember, MOST of the mp3 compression is for sounds outside the human hearing range ;)
- MP3 is COMPRESSED AUDIO, and yes... its does have its usses. Such as Pre-echo on percussions, smeared cymbals, tremolos on harmonics, etc etc etc. These artifacts are very small, and most listeners cant tell or care.. But try make mp3 of a great defined trance track with lots of instruments, or even better, try make a mp3 of a classical music piece...
Mp3's loose some crispness, some of the punch and for sure some of the dynamics.
So, this would lead to the conclution that on scaled systems, such as a Club speaker system, the sound would be bad. And in theory, yes.. it would worse be than real CDs or wave. Of course!;) its compressed audio... some information is LOST and taken away! (if you wanna hear the difference, get together with a band and try to compare sound on a stadion speaker system.. mp3 vs wave/cd).
the good news:
- Mp3s save a lot of space, so the small artifacts vs the saved space... the saved space wins ;)
- Clubs dont really have hi-fi and good defined speakers usually, but rather simple PA systems made to play loud, and having huge bass elements (but you can hear a small difference between wave/cd and mp3s still, mostly artifacts in highs, but also a bit of a "flatt/dull" feel, but this is really not something to be bothered about)
- We dont play mp3s at stadion speakers ;) lol
IMPORTANT NOTE : what compression, what algorithm preset and what encoder you use for mp3 has EVERYTHING to say!! use 192-320kbits compression, variable bitrate, and a good LAME preset.
the future:
- yes, harddrives are getting bigger and bigger, cheaper and cheaper... So, some might start ripping/saving to wave, instead of mp3, in the future
- Using wave should in theory work better for VDJ and all audio apps (mp3's need to be decompressed to wave first)
conclution:
- yes, mp3s have MINOR issues, and a bit less definition/dynamics, but the pratical sides of using mp3 regarding harddrive space compensate for the loss... And reason we use MP3 in the first place;) But that might change, when harddrives get damn cheap and big ;)
Remember, mp3 was "invented" purely to make music fit on hardrives/mobile devices... But now that space consideration is getting less and less important
But you are perfectly right ... mp3 where made for lower system specs (home speakers, pc speakers, mobile devices) at start. But the algoritms got better, and mp3 is not bad at all now...
And remember, MOST of the mp3 compression is for sounds outside the human hearing range ;)
Mensajes Thu 27 Apr 06 @ 9:34 pm
Poloralphloren
Wow dj-in-norway, thank you for the very thorough response! That's interesting that you said most clubs don't have systems that are hifi enough to bring out deficiencies with MP3's... Most of the people are probably too distracted to notice anyway! So that's good to know...
So I don't need to worry so much about using MP3's from my old collection of music probably... But at the same time, I do think I will try to get WAV's for my future music collection whenever possible :) FLAC isn't a bad idea, but not sure if too many hardware/software implementations are compatible with it... Is VDJ compatible with FLAC?
Also, interesting that WAV's should actually perform better than MP3's -- I didn't know MP3's are decompressed to WAV's before they are played anyway !
Anyway, thanks again dj-in-norway!
So I don't need to worry so much about using MP3's from my old collection of music probably... But at the same time, I do think I will try to get WAV's for my future music collection whenever possible :) FLAC isn't a bad idea, but not sure if too many hardware/software implementations are compatible with it... Is VDJ compatible with FLAC?
Also, interesting that WAV's should actually perform better than MP3's -- I didn't know MP3's are decompressed to WAV's before they are played anyway !
Anyway, thanks again dj-in-norway!
Mensajes Thu 27 Apr 06 @ 10:51 pm
DJ Cyder
vdj plays flac files.
Mensajes Thu 27 Apr 06 @ 10:54 pm
Andrew87
VDJ is compatible with Flac if you install a free program called coreflac, there's a thread slightly below this one about it (last few posts). Not many hardware players are compatible with it though, which is a shame because it's free to implement. But you can make huge savings in filesize with no loss in quality vs wav.
Mensajes Thu 27 Apr 06 @ 10:55 pm
kamakuakane
I have a similar motherboard, ASUS P5AD2-E, and all I use is wav and vob. I have not had any issues with either format. My cpu usage averages 8%. There might be an issue with your sound card (what type card?) or configuration. I currently have 12,000 files loaded using 696 GB and still growing. I worked in a club that had a computer loaded with mp3's and there was a noticeable difference, especially in the bass and highs areas as compared to CD's
Mensajes Sat 29 Apr 06 @ 6:15 am
asymptote
Hi just a comment which relates to the starting post for this thread.
I've bought quite a lot of tracks from Beatport and like their catalogue and quality (320) very much.
But I've come across two tracks of the 82 I've bought from them with dropouts or glitches on them. They are brilliant with after sales and sorted me out for new downloads of new versions of the files.
But at first I thought I was having trouble with VDJ and it was not the program it was the file. I think Beatport have now stopped supplying their tracks as WAV files, but I might be wrong. Sorry, cos this is off topic, but I am worried by this sentence from their terms and conditions though.
"You shall be authorized to use the Downloads only for noncommercial, personal use. The Downloads are strictly limited to your personal use and any use or sharing outside the doctrine of Fair Use, as provided in the United States Copyright Code, is in violation of Copyright and Intellectual Property laws."
How can a DJ download network have conditions like that?
Asymptote
I've bought quite a lot of tracks from Beatport and like their catalogue and quality (320) very much.
But I've come across two tracks of the 82 I've bought from them with dropouts or glitches on them. They are brilliant with after sales and sorted me out for new downloads of new versions of the files.
But at first I thought I was having trouble with VDJ and it was not the program it was the file. I think Beatport have now stopped supplying their tracks as WAV files, but I might be wrong. Sorry, cos this is off topic, but I am worried by this sentence from their terms and conditions though.
"You shall be authorized to use the Downloads only for noncommercial, personal use. The Downloads are strictly limited to your personal use and any use or sharing outside the doctrine of Fair Use, as provided in the United States Copyright Code, is in violation of Copyright and Intellectual Property laws."
How can a DJ download network have conditions like that?
Asymptote
Mensajes Sat 29 Apr 06 @ 11:29 am
